4-6* retard with 6* being s spilt second around the 5500 area. Seeing 13(for a second)-18*. DynoSteve did my tune. No adjustments made. I have SW headers, not cats, no resonators, 180* Jet, Intake spacers, Catch Can, BWoody 3.5" intake. Cruising I see 22* timing.

 

Time for a new tune.

 

^^^^^^^Yea really thats crazy man.

Im seeing 1-1.5 knock retard an around 21-24 degrees of timing. My a/f is around 12.0-12.3

 

Was that before or after you put on your headers? My MHP tune did the same thing as my Dynosteve tune. I see 1*-6* retard. The 6* and 5* is a just for a flash second. Hmmm.... interesting.

 

Im with Harrison. mine kicks up to 6 deg. at WOT and during shift points for the most, but the drops to 3.5 deg. as for normal cruising it typically hangs at 0 but can get up to 2.5 deg when accelling from a stop etc. i do have a tune where i never see any STKR at all, but obviously this is what i like to call my "conservative/safe" tune.

 

Harrison if you had a 426 with heads I could see where 18* of timing would be okay but to me that seems low and throw in an AVG of 4degrees of KR your tune is leaving some power on the table. My timing is set around 24* and my KR never goes over 2degrees

 

think i am going to be doing a few dyno pulls along with some datalogging this weekend...will post what i find.

 

Haha, I shouldn't even post in here - everyone knows my story. I'd say those with Dyno steve tunes should check their timing at KR at WOT. Im not calling anyone out, but I didn't have good experience with his tune and got no help when I called. (JUST IN CASE someone decides to retalliate - be advised, I have plenty of datalogs showing proof. I called and got blown off, so keep your comments to yourself. IT IS WHAT IT IS). This is solely my experience.
Thanks,
Jason

 

I am seeing as much as 6.5 retard at 5550 RPM on a fourth gear pull and then it starts dropping until it finally hits 0 at 6150. Seems strange to me to have that much retard.

Actual spk is 18* at 4500rpm with small peaks and valley's that obviously coincide with the amount of retard until it reaches 20.5* at 5k. It then starts droping off slightly with more peaks and valley's 'til a low point of 18* at 5600rpm After that it finally starts climbing with an odd 1.5* dip that dosen't mirror the knock retard at 5800. It peaks at 25* in th 6k range and fluctuates between 24 and 25 until shifting.

Now, lets be clear... I don't know the exact A/F ratio as of yet due to my O2 not showing up, but the tune is conservative on the A/F as well as the timing side at best. I am trying to get an idea of what everone else is seeing, but this doesn't look or seem right to me at all. I had been out of the game for a bit, but I didn't think general tuning principles had changed that much, have they? :thinkerg: Almost makes me want to get back in the biz...

Let me know what you guys think, especially those that are tuning with CMR.

 

Do you have a wideband

 

It hasn't shown up as of yet as I stated in my previous post. I could use an old one, but I cant remember if it reads right or not as it hasn't been used in a while. I think it may not, so I'll just wait. Believe me as soon as it does show up, it'll get plenty of use. I may take it over to my buddies shop and stick it on the wheels with a tail pipe o2 tomorrow anyway. I would really like to know what is going on with this thing and see just how much of a CMR tune it really is. At this point, I am pretty frustrated with the logs so far. I can only assume that once I see what is really going on that I'll feel that I'm gonna need to start looking into aquiring the CMR software. I can't sit back too much longer when this is what I used to do for a living!

 

All my datalogs are done on the street during a 1/4 run on this nice little unknown street. I can say that Steve's tune netted my a .2 difference in the 1/4. I put down DynoJet corrected numbers of 390awhp with Andy's tune and like I said, Steve tune was .2 quicker in the 1/4. This was after 4 runs with each tune, not on the first run. If I'm "leaving" some power out there... I'm fine with it. I think my runs kinda speak. I will know more in a few weeks when the dyno is back up and running in the new shop. The first time I dyno'd Andy's tune, we removed timing to try and get the KR down and it did nothing. We devanced it 1, then 2, then 3* and always had the same result. I've said it once and I'll say it again, these are noisey engines and I believe I'm picking up alot of ghost knock b/c of our first dyno'ing session. All I know is...... My truck runs consistant 12.7's with a pretty heavy race weight due to me and Dynomat and stereo equipment.

 

^^^^ Who did your CMR tune?

 

I don't want to step on any toes and I want to give them an opportunity address my concerns anyway. I havn't talked with them about this as of yet. Let's say they are reputable, and when talking with them originally, they were knowledgable as far as what was talked about... I am sure it'll be fine once "they" see the logs and make some adjustment. Hopefully!

 

Smart man.......

 

I agree with Chris, the tune is proven. He has run a 12.7 just shy of 107, dont change a thing.

I personally am seeing as much as 4 degrees spark knock before the shift with a base timing of 22.5(My N20 Tune).

 

Whos there?

 

I thought 0 was the best? You guys should get new tunes. All it's doing is pulling timing and slowing you down. I can see a little spike during a shift or when you first nail it (I think they call it tip in knock), at most 1 degree of timing being retarded, and then it should be gone....anything more and i'd be worried

 

Actually 0 is not really best because you dont know if you have power left on the table due to lack of timing. Our computers are advanced enough to pull timing with detonation present, I like to see a few degrees pulled at all times. The is no difference if your tune lets you run 18 degrees and 0 Spark Knock or 20 degrees and 2 degrees spark knock, both tunes are still running 18 degrees at number 1 cylinder. Now if your running 18 and no spark knock how do you know you couldnt of been running 20 :thinkerg: if the air was better or you had better fuel than the last time. We each have our own ways of tuning and in the end if your happy with you personal results let it be, I think Harrison has impressive results for the mods listed.

 

I agree that Harrison does have impressive results for his mods...but I was always told to zero out knock as much as you can. I'm not a huge fan on running as much timing as you can possibly run. I personally just don't like the idea of the computer pulling timing all the time (under wot). Only time i'd really up the timing by a lot personally would be if I were running a high octane gas or using a methanol injection system on the vehicle.

 

Exactly right. Here's the deal guys... First there is ghost knock, and second when your computer pulls timing it probably pulls too much. There are many other factors involved as well, as I mentioned in my opening post. I have always just tried to get around it by setting the timing correctly to start with. Just don't set everything to the edge as Mempis indicated. Believe me, I owned a dyno for quite some time and did a hell of a lot of tuning. Maybe it was a bit ago (sold everything in 2000-01) and things have changed to a point, but the principles stand. You tune it to the edge and than back up from there to make it live, unless you like the cutting edge. And, just to be clear, your final tune should never come from the still air dyno either! Well, unless you have the dyno in a wind tunnel with atmospheric air that is! Doubtful! It should always be fine tuned to a real world adjustment, especially if you are even close to the edge of forever.

I noticed that NONE of the CMR guys chimed in here. Why is that? I have read many good things about some of them here, why not give your two cents? Come on guys give your opinions here! Look, I understand there are reasons to keep things in check to a point when you can't put an individual car on the dyno, but what I'm seeing is very conservative. It's not that I wasnt told that it would be somewhat conservative, but I didn't really see this coming. Again to be fair, I haven't contacted the tuner about it yet either as I am still trying to gather info through log comparison. In any case, it's just not how I would do it, but that's me and I'm not doing this for a living anymore.

 

Timing is timing...... it's no secret our motors are noisey. Andy has seen KR on a stock motor with stock settings. Dwight at Stage6 tuned a 427SC Vette at his shop. They kept seeing 4-6* of KR..... they kept backing off timing to get it down. They got to -2* timing and gave up b/c nothing made a difference. It was all ghost knock. It's no secret that our knock sensors are very touchy. Personally, I'd rather see a little KR than 0 KR. I can deal with 1-4/5* of KR(after seeing my datalog yesterday) vs. 0 KR b/c I don't know what's being left out there. The Jeep will pull a max of 9* KR. I'm far from it. I know that the motor is safe pulling what it's pulling out of it. If it's pulling max 9*...... then I'll freak a little. Until then...... the dyno is a few days away.

 

Well I believe having solid motor mounts or trans mounts can give you false readings with kr...or so I have heard. So depending on how strong the engine and trans mounts are on the gc, which I would assume they are strong as hell, that could be a factor. My friend who works for GM says 6 degrees of timing being pulled is tolerable. He seems to think its safe. I never really kept that in mind though when I was tuning his car haha.

 

One of the questions to be asked is how fast our computers give timing back after knock is registered and timing is pulled. Coming from the LS1 world, it's very slow, so you tune for zero knock. The good news is I will be a beta tester for HPTuners shortly.

I see -4.5 on my WOT runs and -2.5 generally on light throttle high load situations.