Promotion vs. bg stage II cmr tune.
First please understand that by no means am I bashing or endorsing either B&G or ProMotion, I’m merely posting a statement about my recent personal experiences with both companies.
After having initially set the nitrous record with a Jeep at 11.67@116.5 I drove down to Fredricksburg, VA so ProMotion could attempt to dial my combination in on the dyno. In the process they (James/Katz) got to see the workings of my B&G tune. On the dyno naturally aspirated I went from 376rwhp to 386rwhp (same dyno before/after) and I was impressed with the gains made on nitrous as well, from 462rwhp to 501rwhp (different dynos before/after) on the same 125 shot. The question however remained how much of the gain was from the tune, from a different dyno, and/or from the newly added full Stainless Works exhaust.
In search of further proof that I now had a superior tune, I went to track last sat (11/10) and my best run was only 11.9@~113, James at promotion was there helping out. We ended up trying many tunes, and our worst run was 12.1@111, still dealing with tq management issues. After I got back to the shop and pulled the plugs, I found that they were literally poop brown in color. I put new plugs in and my Innovative LM1 wideband in the pass side (which several others and I have found to read leaner than the driver’s side) A/F was 10.3-10.6 on street N/A, on spray it wouldn’t even read it was so rich.
Shortly after I decided to call Dave @ B&G and ask him if he could look at the tunes to see what he could do, unfortunately I could not send the tunes because the original dyno tunes were locked. So Dave didn’t have the advantage that ProMotion had over him initially. Dave then cut me a new tune; before I installed it I went to a local shop that does CMR tuning but refuses to touch any Chrysler products due to the complexity of their PCMs. I asked the head tuner to look at a few parameters for me, and to my disbelief as far as what ProMotion led me and others to believe, they have in fact desensitized the knock sensors (as does B&G however he publicly admits it). I then called Dave at B&G and he wrote me a new tune with all of the stock knock sensor sensitivity back in specifically because I wanted a safe nitrous tune. Knock sensor readings from my Snap On Solus scan tool, registered at 1.5 for the ProMotion with desensitized knock sensors, and 2.5 for the B&G with OEM sensitivity.

Down to the comparison, via 0-60 on my Dashawk, the best of ProMotion’s nine tunes landed me a 3.98 N/A. My best run with the sole B&G stage II tune was 3.52 and A/F was now 12.2-12.3. After a quick check the plugs looked fine with B&G. Wanting more results I went back to MIR this weekend. Traction was still an issue but we got back to 11.68@115 with original 125 shot. We upped the shot (150) but to no one’s surprise traction became even more of an issue.

In prior posts I was very happy with the ProMotion tune based on dyno results but very unhappy with track results. I think that if Dave has the proper logs/data that any solid tuner requires, there is no question he can nail a tune. Again I am not bashing nor endorsing either vendor just passing on my personal experiences.
I know that ProMotion will probably call me and try to straighten out the tune but I only have two weekends left before the track closes and I don’t think they can do it in said amount of time.

Thanks,
Mike

Wow..Very interesting. Thanks for the post.

I've stood by Daves tunes, looked at ProMotion and they are charging 799.00 for dyno tuning on a 2wd dyno in Houston and said to myself it was not worth it. Plus Dave and I agreed for me to do a stock dyno then his tune on a dyno, forward the results to him for even more fine tuning at no cost. I appreciate the post and the findings and it just shows that experience will always win out in the end

Seems as if James was tuning for a Dyno Number. Too bad Dyno Numbers dont win races.
I cant stress enough... You Have to have a Wideband! Street tune is the only way to go.
I have noticed all the power in the Vehicles is made through the Air/Fuel and Not the timing.

+1 Boost, street tuning is the way to go.

I'll add that I'm back with B&G at this point as well. Dave's tunes feel substantially faster even at part throttle than the ProMotion CMR I was running. Sorry for doubting you bud, you are the man.
My usual tuner (Don LaSota) will have full CMR software next week but I'm still uber grateful that Dave's gotten me this close via email.

I still just tune my own....and I only have a Hand held. =-)

I was just referred to this post so sorry for the delay in responding. I was in Houston last week.

Mike... I agree you were having issues with our tune at the track. That is why I too was doing everything we could to assist you with your jeep while at the track. Although we are comparing tune to tune... Here is some varibles I still see outstanding and things not clearly posted....

1. We (neither you nor I) have proof the plugs were not junked from the beginning. However this is no reason for too rich AFRs.

2. Wideband AFRs are always better then a tail pipe sniffer that is used on the the Dyno.

With that being said... Yes I would of loved to have seen the Jeep back on the dyno to see what had happened. During the time we tuned your vehicle and the time after the track, you do recall all the files were deleted and not working with the new Crom Update. This is a huge flaw in the CMR to Crom Calibration that was released by Diablosport.... I was doing everything I could with you on the phone late into the evening to get the files converted over to the new calibration.

Your comments about my tunes being locked show their may be some corruption within the tune files after the CROM update... Why do I say this? Because as B&G, PPP and Diablo will tell you... There is no way to lock CMR tunes at this time.... So if Dave or the other shop had issues ready the tunes, it appears there is some sort of corruption. However what doesnt add up to me is... How could your local shop read our tunes but B&G Couldnt?

Also to touch on knock sensors.... The desensitized knock sensors that you speak of is a smoothing process that was perfected by Diablosport and was and is still used on all Canned Tunes, B&G (unless he has not changed this now), and other vendors. However if you would like to see the differences... Dont monitor total knock retard... Monitor the Knock sensor voltage and compare...

In the end Mike... I am sorry we couldnt get to assist you again. I think the frustrations were rising at the track and at the end of the day without any chance to perfect it, it was done. In all fairness I am honored that people are comparing our one shot tunes to everyother companies several attempts and not allowing us those abilities... We are under the microscope right now and its fine... But like you said with the tracks closing for the year, there simply isnt the time to prove otherwise and for that there is no winner or loser.

Feel free to call me anytime. I am sure you know I sent you a PM long before this post that went unanswered... Got the hint with that.

Best Regards,
James

Seems as if James was tuning for a Dyno Number. Too bad Dyno Numbers dont win races.
I cant stress enough... You Have to have a Wideband! Street tune is the only way to go.
I have noticed all the power in the Vehicles is made through the Air/Fuel and Not the timing.

This is completely not the case sir.... When we are on the dyno, Our customers are the ones wanting the number.... Every email, phone call and PM I get, the question is asked... HOW MUCH HP am I going to get... Its not about HP... Its about how the vehicle is performing when it comes in versus when it leaves. Agreed we have a flaw without Mike having the Wideband at time of dyno and we used the tail sniffer.

The best way to still tune a vehicle is on a Load based dyno tuning each individual cell one by one. Takes about 8-10 hours to do this properly... However in this day in age, no one is willing to pay $1250 for a loaded tune. WOT Tuning and Street Tuning will get you close... but neither is superior to a Loaded Dyno Tune thru all the cells.

One thing I would of also liked to have seen with the Bwoody info and comparisons.... is Logs from both files... I would like to see if the logs of our tune are representing the tune we made for the vehicle on the dyno or if they did become corrupted when the CMR/Crom Update was released from Diablo.

Thanks
James

I have to say something about this and I am not trying to take sides. In my eyes there are 3 very good tuners. Andy at Power Ported Performance, James and his crew at ProMotion and Dave at B&G. They are all excellent with understanding this stuff. But in order for them to understand your vehicle is where it gets tough. Dave can send a mail order tune to one person and it will run a 11.6 and then send that same tune to a different person, with the exact setup and they will run a 11.9 All trucks are different and understanding each individual one, which takes times, is going to get the best outcome. I say screw everyone else, but these 3 companies know what they are doing, so lets just pick our tuners and stick with it and not knock other tuners just because their tune lost you 5-10 hp. If you have a good relationship with your tuner, I feel that is all that matters. If you can gain 5-10 hp somewhere else, what does it really matter?

2nd that........

I was just referred to this post so sorry for the delay in responding. I was in Houston last week.

Mike... I agree you were having issues with our tune at the track. That is why I too was doing everything we could to assist you with your jeep while at the track. Although we are comparing tune to tune... Here is some varibles I still see outstanding and things not clearly posted....

1. We (neither you nor I) have proof the plugs were not junked from the beginning. However this is no reason for too rich AFRs.

Actually the plugs were changed the day prior to me leaving to come down to fredericksburg.

2. Wideband AFRs are always better then a tail pipe sniffer that is used on the the Dyno.

I asked you the day before if I should re-install my LM-1 innovative wideband and you said your sniffer was within .1-.2 AFR and there was no need.

With that being said... Yes I would of loved to have seen the Jeep back on the dyno to see what had happened. During the time we tuned your vehicle and the time after the track, you do recall all the files were deleted and not working with the new Crom Update. This is a huge flaw in the CMR to Crom Calibration that was released by Diablosport.... I was doing everything I could with you on the phone late into the evening to get the files converted over to the new calibration.
Yes i do recall you saying they were corrupted and i do appreciate you sending me the new fillesthat i had purchased.

Your comments about my tunes being locked show their may be some corruption within the tune files after the CROM update... Why do I say this? Because as B&G, PPP and Diablo will tell you... There is no way to lock CMR tunes at this time.... So if Dave or the other shop had issues ready the tunes, it appears there is some sort of corruption. However what doesnt add up to me is... How could your local shop read our tunes but B&G Couldnt?

The local shop couldn't read the original tunes either as they wouldn't download off of the diablo to the computer, the local shop viewed the tunes you emailed me. What are you trying to insinuate? Im a liar? I have nothing to prove here just explaining my personal experiences here. MORE read under next quote.

Also to touch on knock sensors.... The desensitized knock sensors that you speak of is a smoothing process that was perfected by Diablosport and was and is still used on all Canned Tunes, B&G (unless he has not changed this now), and other vendors. However if you would like to see the differences... Dont monitor total knock retard... Monitor the Knock sensor voltage and compare...

When I was at your shop you specifically stressed the point and i'll quote "pro-motion tuning does not modify the oem knock sensor sensitivity and that dave at B&G does" you only told me that while getting tuned about 20 times. Hmmmmm please refer to the quote above.... who should be insinuating here????

In the end Mike... I am sorry we couldnt get to assist you again. I think the frustrations were rising at the track and at the end of the day without any chance to perfect it, it was done. In all fairness I am honored that people are comparing our one shot tunes to everyother companies several attempts and not allowing us those abilities... We are under the microscope right now and its fine... But like you said with the tracks closing for the year, there simply isnt the time to prove otherwise and for that there is no winner or loser.

Feel free to call me anytime. I am sure you know I sent you a PM long before this post that went unanswered... Got the hint with that.

Best Regards,
James

One shot tune??? I paid for a dyno tune didn't I? Actually your pm said i see your still having issues please call me. I did and left a message and you never returned my call. Got the hint on that I figured you had no answer for me as you at the track said you were baffled. Not trying to place anyone under the microscope here james just trying to get my issues resolved, you have the shop phone and my cell phone you could have called me to get this resolved, you didn't so i went back to dave at B&G who you have discredited since you have been on this forum. Doesn't seem fair to me.

Q and A:

Are promotions tunes worth what you as a consumer pays?
Im sorry but in my opinion no they are not, experience always shines through and you have proved to me and many others that you need more bench time to figure out the 6.1hemi.

Does pro-motion tuning desensitize the knock sensor readings even though they stress the point they do not?
They Absolutely do!!!

Is BWoody's 6.1 the only hemi pro-motion vehicle they have had problems with?
No, several pm's and phone calls to the shop proveing alot of your customers feel the same way as we do.

Would I like to be re-tuned by pro-motion tuning?
Sorry James i'll pass, once you have as much experience as your competition I may consider it, but im impatient and not willing to wait that long.

Was the pro-motion tune safer than the B&G?
Absolutely not!! Unless you consider washing out the piston's rings with fuel safe.

Who's tune shined through during personal dash hawk 0-60 readings?
B&G by almost a half a second!

Would I like my money back for the tune?
Absolutely, but I know it will never happen, funny Dave at B&G offered to refund my money when he knew we were having problems, and he never insinuated anything.........

Thanks,
Mike
BWoodyPerformance

Thanks for all the info Mike! It seems like I made the right choice by going with Dave @ B&G. He has proven to be an honest man that will stand by his work.

Actually the plugs were changed the day prior to me leaving to come down to fredericksburg.



I asked you the day before if I should re-install my LM-1 innovative wideband and you said your sniffer was within .1-.2 AFR and there was no need.


Yes i do recall you saying they were corrupted and i do appreciate you sending me the new fillesthat i had purchased.



The local shop couldn't read the original tunes either as they wouldn't download off of the diablo to the computer, the local shop viewed the tunes you emailed me. What are you trying to insinuate? Im a liar? I have nothing to prove here just explaining my personal experiences here. MORE read under next quote.



When I was at your shop you specifically stressed the point and i'll quote "pro-motion tuning does not modify the oem knock sensor sensitivity and that dave at B&G does" you only told me that while getting tuned about 20 times. Hmmmmm please refer to the quote above.... who should be insinuating here????



One shot tune??? I paid for a dyno tune didn't I? Actually your pm said i see your still having issues please call me. I did and left a message and you never returned my call. Got the hint on that I figured you had no answer for me as you at the track said you were baffled. Not trying to place anyone under the microscope here james just trying to get my issues resolved, you have the shop phone and my cell phone you could have called me to get this resolved, you didn't so i went back to dave at B&G who you have discredited since you have been on this forum. Doesn't seem fair to me.

Q and A:

Are promotions tunes worth what you as a consumer pays?
Im sorry but in my opinion no they are not, experience always shines through and you have proved to me and many others that you need more bench time to figure out the 6.1hemi.

Does pro-motion tuning desensitize the knock sensor readings even though they stress the point they do not?
They Absolutely do!!!

Is BWoody's 6.1 the only hemi pro-motion vehicle they have had problems with?
No, several pm's and phone calls to the shop proveing alot of your customers feel the same way as we do.

Would I like to be re-tuned by pro-motion tuning?
Sorry James i'll pass, once you have as much experience as your competition I may consider it, but im impatient and not willing to wait that long.

Was the pro-motion tune safer than the B&G?
Absolutely not!! Unless you consider washing out the piston's rings with fuel safe.

Who's tune shined through during personal dash hawk 0-60 readings?
B&G by almost a half a second!

Would I like my money back for the tune?
Absolutely, but I know it will never happen, funny Dave at B&G offered to refund my money when he knew we were having problems, and he never insinuated anything.........

Thanks,
Mike
BWoodyPerformance


Mike... Again you are not seeing the fact that there was obvious CMR issues with Diablo and the old Crom Files. Feel free to confirm this with Johan at DiabloSport. I feel as if all your concerns could have easily addressed had we been able to get the car back on the dyno. I think the two jeeps in these threads in question are just so eager to beat each other, reality goes by the wayside and words start flying.. When everyone has a full understanding of what really happened here and what will happen in the future, this thread will be history and we will all laugh at it....

Thanks
James

Dave Rules............................................. .................................................. .......................dave Rules............................................. .guess Who ..........................will.................... .............be ...............................doing.............. ...............................mine............... .........?

Well,... Hmmm!....Let me guess!.......Mr. Dave Kasper...:D

Mike... Again you are not seeing the fact that there was obvious CMR issues with Diablo and the old Crom Files. Feel free to confirm this with Johan at DiabloSport. I feel as if all your concerns could have easily addressed had we been able to get the car back on the dyno. I think the two jeeps in these threads in question are just so eager to beat each other, reality goes by the wayside and words start flying.. When everyone has a full understanding of what really happened here and what will happen in the future, this thread will be history and we will all laugh at it....

Thanks
James

Actually mike from diablo will be reviewing all of my tunes, we met at PRI on friday and he feels something is very wrong with my tunes. So i have agreed to send him all that i have to let him diagnose the problems, he is also trying to figure out why i am stuck in 2 wheel drive as well, i guess we'll find out once i email eveything to him on monday when we get back from Orlando.

Actually mike from diablo will be reviewing all of my tunes, we met at PRI on friday and he feels something is very wrong with my tunes. So i have agreed to send him all that i have to let him diagnose the problems, he is also trying to figure out why i am stuck in 2 wheel drive as well, i guess we'll find out once i email eveything to him on monday when we get back from Orlando.

Sounds good... You still have my cell phone number. Feel free to call me asap with any results or details.

James