0% financing and Employee pricing? [Archive] - Cherokee SRT8 Forum

: 0% financing and Employee pricing?


JeepSRT
07-01-2006, 08:37 AM
Does anyone know if this applies to the GC SRT8? I have looked everywhere and it does'nt say that it does not apply. Could be a great deal if you could get it.

Dr.Steve
07-01-2006, 09:21 AM
IT DOES NOT APPLY!!!!! to any SRT vehicles, I have several clients who work for the company, one of them being a tech mgr for benz and they all tried for me / provided me with the employee discount #, etc., but the dealer shot down all of my attempts at applying it to my order for the GCSRT-8, there are disclaimers under most of those offers clearly stating that they don't apply to the SRT-8's anyway. . . it would be nice though, I agree!

Beltfed
07-01-2006, 09:24 AM
You can get a TB SS for 0% for 72 months....:)

JeepSRT
07-01-2006, 09:32 AM
thanks Dr. Steve, I figured it would not apply but did not know for sure. As for the TBSS, no comment:)

Dr.Steve
07-01-2006, 09:40 AM
no prob JeepSRT, and I heartily agree on the no comment, I'd rather take a dump for 0% and 72months than drive that ugly, boxy couch

jtpollock
07-01-2006, 03:57 PM
Dr. Steve is correct about the *standard* EP and EC programs at Chrysler; they do not apply to the SRT8 family. HOWEVER, this month's special at Chrysler/Jeep DOES INDEED APPLY to the SRT8 Jeep GC ... In fact, I was down at my local dealer today and I've now got one on order for thousands less than MSRP. This month is the time to buy if you've been on the fence!

-Jeff-

Krush
07-01-2006, 06:58 PM
The Jeep website says the SRT8 is EXCLUDED from this months special sale.

Jeff
07-02-2006, 08:26 AM
the commercial only excludes Viper, SRT-10, and 2007 Caliber. paused it last night when it came on.

jtpollock
07-02-2006, 10:05 AM
Jeff's right:

the commercial only excludes Viper, SRT-10, and 2007 Caliber. paused it last night when it came on.

Jeep GC SRT8 is fair game. If someone tells you different, they're wrong. If you go sit down with your dealer today, they will show you a dealer worksheet for the GCSRT8 that shows a base model plus opt grp 1&2 at factory invoice for $36k and some change; plus the employee pricing of ~10% and you get it for $40k +/- a few hundred. That should be a nearly identical quote from all Jeep dealerships as they are all working from their factory invoice. Ends up as several grand cheaper than msrp and several more grand less than the markup that dealers around me were trying to get last month.

Unless you want (a) used, or (b) an '07 ........buy now!

Untouchable
07-02-2006, 11:57 AM
I asked a dealer and they said the 0% didnt apply but that the Emp Discount did. Is this what you guys are hearing as well. Might have to get another one:D

jtpollock
07-02-2006, 04:08 PM
I asked a dealer and they said the 0% didnt apply but that the Emp Discount did. Is this what you guys are hearing as well. Might have to get another one:D

Yep, that is exactly what I heard: neither the 0% or the additional rebates (up to $3500) apply...but the emp pricing is in effect -- basically ~10% over the factory invoice.

ResumeSpeed
07-02-2006, 07:41 PM
Yep, that is exactly what I heard: neither the 0% or the additional rebates (up to $3500) apply...but the emp pricing is in effect -- basically ~10% over the factory invoice.
Employee pricing is below invoice. 10% over would be close to MSRP.

Krush
07-02-2006, 09:34 PM
So is this one of those "at participating dealers" things, cause all the dealers I talk to before putting my money down last week said this sale would not apply to ANY SRT models. Do they have to honor this? Hell, the one deal still has 50,000 on the window of his black GCSRT. Also, if signed on the dotted line and put 5 grand down before July 1st but don't pay in full and receive the car until this week am I owed the discount?

Also, this is where it says that employee pricing doesn't apply to the Grand Cherokee SRT8:

http://www.jeep.com/incentives/IncentivesController.do?brand=Jeep&language=en&salesMarket=us&family=brand

Note the "(Excl. SRT8)" next to the Grand Cherokee.

ResumeSpeed
07-02-2006, 09:59 PM
So is this one of those "at participating dealers" things, cause all the dealers I talk to before putting my money down last week said this sale would not apply to ANY SRT models. Do they have to honor this? Hell, the one deal still has 50,000 on the window of his black GCSRT. Also, if signed on the dotted line and put 5 grand down before July 1st but don't pay in full and receive the car until this week am I owed the discount?

Also, this is where it says that employee pricing doesn't apply to the Grand Cherokee SRT8:

http://www.jeep.com/incentives/IncentivesController.do?brand=Jeep&language=en&salesMarket=us&family=brand

Note the "(Excl. SRT8)" next to the Grand Cherokee.
If you go to the pricing section and price out a SRT it will show the employee price discount ($4,982 discount on a fully loaded model).

If you have not taken delivery yet then you would be entitled to the discount, as long as the final paperwork has not been signed. If your dealer does not honor this, walk away.

Krush
07-02-2006, 10:06 PM
Does the employee discount only apply if you finance or lease the car?

ResumeSpeed
07-02-2006, 10:11 PM
Does the employee discount only apply if you finance or lease the car?
No, you can pay however you like.

Krush
07-02-2006, 10:32 PM
Thanks Resume, looks like I'll be stopping by my dealer to have a little talk tomorrow (or Wednesday if there closed). I hope they don't try to jerk me on this.

Krush
07-03-2006, 09:57 AM
Does anyone know how this deal works from the dealers perspective? Does Jeep compensate the dealers the 4 grand that we save? Just woundering if the dealers make less money on the car with this deal.

steve desjardins
07-03-2006, 03:32 PM
we get a percent back from DCX

zen garage
07-03-2006, 06:42 PM
Hoperfully I have a deal worked out with my local dealer for the EP and will have the car wednesday. Look forward to joining your group of merry men. As my signiture indicates, I have a few other SRT toys.

Krush
07-03-2006, 09:14 PM
I went to the 6 dealers within 45 minutes of my home today and not one would honer the EP deal, even for a cash deal today (I had company checks with me!). It's insane here, $500 under MSRP is still the best deal I've found and thats a lot better than the other dealers offers. I actually watched a guy buy a silver one for his kid today, for the great deal of 3 grand over sticker! The sad thing is, I want the car and will probably still buy at my current deal, but the dealer will lose all my company and personal business (3 cars every 3 years). Hopefully when they hear that they will change there tune.

ResumeSpeed
07-03-2006, 11:08 PM
I went to the 6 dealers within 45 minutes of my home today and not one would honer the EP deal, even for a cash deal today (I had company checks with me!). It's insane here, $500 under MSRP is still the best deal I've found and thats a lot better than the other dealers offers. I actually watched a guy buy a silver one for his kid today, for the great deal of 3 grand over sticker! The sad thing is, I want the car and will probably still buy at my current deal, but the dealer will lose all my company and personal business (3 cars every 3 years). Hopefully when they hear that they will change there tune.
Dealers are REQUIRED to honor the EP deal, without a second sticker, I would call the Chrysler zone office and complain.

palo alto dave
07-03-2006, 11:12 PM
I just bought a silver GC SRT8 July 1 and the employee discount is in effect
till the end of the month. The dealer was as surprised as I was, 5k off msrp.
the total was 40,338.00 + fees. If you can find one in stock, great savings
can be had. You will most likely have to call the dealers, I see they have taken all inventory off the web where I live. Good hunting....................

Krush
07-04-2006, 12:00 AM
Dealers are REQUIRED to honor the EP deal, without a second sticker, I would call the Chrysler zone office and complain.

Well I called the 800 number off the jeep website and the guy told me that a dealer could choose not to participate in the deal. The crappy thing is that there whole showroom is full of cars marked with the special EP pricing, including there 300SRT8 models. Who else can I call to try and put pressure on the dealer?

JeepSRT
07-04-2006, 01:00 AM
I just got ep today, fully loaded '06 for $41,009. :) :)

Untouchable
07-04-2006, 09:22 AM
are they honoring the 0% on this vehicle?

24kinmotion
07-04-2006, 12:31 PM
Yes, I just got one last night.The dealer still has a red one left fully eqipped for 415xx. The other dealer quotted me 426xx as ep price for a same color and eqipped one and I was going to get it. Luckly ,I check with a member dealer in POA for the price. The dealer has 0% for 36 months.

Untouchable
07-04-2006, 04:52 PM
my dealer told me the 0% didnt apply. Is this not so.?

zen garage
07-04-2006, 07:23 PM
my dealer told me the 0% didnt apply as well. Can someone verify?

ResumeSpeed
07-04-2006, 09:23 PM
my dealer told me the 0% didnt apply as well. Can someone verify?
Does not apply...

"Cash allowance is in lieu of 0% APR and excludes Viper, Magnum, Charger, SRT, 300 and 2007 models."

vheinz19
07-05-2006, 12:12 PM
Does anyone know if the EP applies to an 2007 ordered SRT8?
Thanks,

Dr.Steve
07-05-2006, 01:00 PM
Well, I guess it's time for a big thank u to forum members. . .thanks to your info, I went back to my dealer and talked to him about using my E.P. for the SRT-8 and after he said it was only on in-stock vehicles and mine wouldn't be in until Aug., I contacted another dealer 5 miles from my house who had a black with the features I wanted, and he said he'd honor the E.P. no problem. . .so now I'm in a war to recover my 1K deposit, but I still saved 5K on the employee pricing, so even if I don't get the deposit back, I still owe you all a round of beers!!!

JeepSRT
07-05-2006, 03:01 PM
can you get ep on special orders?

Guero
07-05-2006, 03:08 PM
Can someone tell me if they know of any dealers in Texas willing to honor the offer? And if so, what city? Thanks!

Krush
07-05-2006, 03:11 PM
@vheinz19

No, it doesn't apply to 2007 models. This is what dealers have told me.


Well I've been taking call backs from dealers within a hundred mile radius and at this point, in my area (IL/Southern WI) I have yet to find a dealer willing to sell a new Black SRT8 with ED pricing. In fact my current deal of $500 below MSRP is looking even better as I haven't found a single dealer that will let a black one go for less than MSRP and I witnessed a silver one go for 3 grand over. I have been talking with my dealer letting him know that he will be loosing all my future business (my company has 8 company cars and vans) if he doesn't make me feel better about the deal. I know he will give another $500 off when the car arrives, which would make me feel better, but thats still not enough. At this point I'm thinking about holding out for a 2007 but how do I know they won't be selling those for 2 grand over MSRP when they arrive, and when will they arrive? Maybe I should just grab this one while I can and realize, if wasn't for this ED promotion, I'd feel like I was getting a good deal. This really sucks.

Note: If anyone wants a 300 SRT8 come and get it, they're blow them out around here for ED and more added incentives.

Beltfed
07-05-2006, 04:05 PM
.so now I'm in a war to recover my 1K deposit, but I still saved 5K on the employee pricing, so even if I don't get the deposit back, I still owe you all a round of beers!!!

The dealer MUST refund your deposit, no questions asked.

No services were rendered, you are entitled to the deposit back.

Dealers cannot keep deposits whether you ordered a vehicle or not.

Only situation where you might not be entitled to a refundable deposit is when you order a color combination that the dealer would have a problem selling to someone else.

Dr.Steve
07-05-2006, 04:42 PM
I will keep you all updated, and thanks for the words, I can't imagine it'll be a difficult combo to sell since there are only three combos available!

Dr.Steve
07-05-2006, 04:51 PM
Quick Update:
Just wanted to let you guys know that the fellas at McDonagh Jeep in East Brunswick were very fair to me and said they would be cutting a check for the deposit refund within a day or two. . . really too bad I couldn't buy from them, they've been great through the whole process. . . but not great enough to buy for sticker!. . . I'll be picking up my black from the lot before the end of the month!!!

Beltfed
07-05-2006, 09:13 PM
I can't imagine it'll be a difficult combo to sell since there are only three combos available!

Glad to hear they will be refunding the deposit.

As you said, no SRT color is "problem" inventory.

barho
07-06-2006, 02:40 PM
Also, this is where it says that employee pricing doesn't apply to the Grand Cherokee SRT8:

http://www.jeep.com/incentives/IncentivesController.do?brand=Jeep&language=en&salesMarket=us&family=brand

Note the "(Excl. SRT8)" next to the Grand Cherokee.

Krush - On that link it does show that the SRT is INCLUDED in the EP discount, just not the $2K cash back and/or 0% APR. Note the two different lines.

barho
07-06-2006, 02:56 PM
Just got off the phone with someone from Jeep through the 800 number and asked to clarify the EP for the SRT. The young lady told me that the SRT is covered by the EP. She did state that a few dealerships may elect not to honor the employee pricing. I then asked "if the dealer is offering employee pricing on all other jeep models, can they refuse to offer on the SRT itself?" She said she did not believe dealers were able to do this and that she had never heard of this problem before (this is the problem I am currently having as I am sure many of us are).

She stated that the dealer may not be aware that the current EP pricing includes the SRT and that you should let them know that they need to contact Jeep's rebate programs. The dealers have their own number, but if you wish you can give them this number or call to find out yourself: 800-227-0757.

Hope this helps.

ResumeSpeed
07-06-2006, 03:03 PM
The Jeep SRT IS INCLUDED in the EP program. The ONLY exclusions are:

Employee Pricing: "Excludes Viper, Sprinter, Ram SRT 10, and 2007 models."

Rebate/Finance: "Excludes Sprinter, Viper, SRT and 2007 models."

This is from the print advertising flyer and is also on the TV ads in small print. Several people have already purchased Grand Cherokee SRT8's at the Employee Pricing. Some dealers are honoring it, some are not.

barho
07-06-2006, 03:40 PM
Just got off the phone with the DCX rebate department. They told me if a dealer is participating in the EP program they CANNOT selectively choose which vehicles are covered. So basically....TAKE THEM TO TASK!!! AND BUY NOW!!!!!!!

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

radduc
07-06-2006, 04:16 PM
Dam!! That's great news for you guy's going to purchase one now.So what does that bring the retail price down to?Is it a $2,000.00 rebate?

Krush
07-06-2006, 04:49 PM
Just got off the phone with the DCX rebate department. They told me if a dealer is participating in the EP program they CANNOT selectively choose which vehicles are covered. So basically....TAKE THEM TO TASK!!! AND BUY NOW!!!!!!!

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

I also called, and you are 100% correct. The problem being, the dealer can sit on the car for until the sale is over if they want, they don't have to sell. They can also have the buyer sign an exemption, in which the dealer will get not only what they sell the car for but the added EP credit, now that's dirty. In my case, if I try and force the EP pricing on them, they will just give me my 5 grand back and sell it to one of the dozen people waiting in line hoping I don't buy it.

Dr.Steve
07-06-2006, 04:57 PM
Radduc-
my sticker (before state sales tax and reg. fees, etc.) was $39,949, down from $44,950 (everything but rear ent system), after taxes and fees total is $42,935, so figure on close to a 6K difference (at least in my case) over list price. . . not a bad deal at all

ResumeSpeed
07-06-2006, 07:11 PM
...In my case, if I try and force the EP pricing on them, they will just give me my 5 grand back and sell it to one of the dozen people waiting in line hoping I don't buy it.
Hey Krush, I emailed your dealer and complained (anonymously, no names mentioned) about them not wanting to honor the EP deal on SRT models. Check out their BS reply:

Hello my name is Nate and I'm the internet sales manager. I'm sorry you were misinformed about the SRT8 Grand Cherokee pricing, we ARE selling them at Employee Pricing its just that all of my low production cars have either a wood grain interior and or a Environmental Protection PKG. put on them that brings the price up a little . Please let me know if there's anything I can do to help you in your new car search if you are even searching. I do not have any SRT8's in stock but do have some on the way if your interested. Other wise thanks for the email .

Thanks,
Nate


"Environmental package???", Damn, WHY in the hell didn't MY dealer offer that back when I bought my SRT8? I could have made my contribution to mother earth!

Beltfed
07-06-2006, 08:51 PM
"Environmental package???", Damn, WHY in the hell didn't MY dealer offer that back when I bought my SRT8? I could have made my contribution to mother earth!

What the hell could that possibly be anyway?

I would almost be curious to ask the guy what exactly that includes.

jms935
07-06-2006, 09:12 PM
The environmental protection package is an invisible film on the car used to jack up the price of limited production cars. Oh, it is applied by an invisible man as well. Why would you want to by from a crook. These aren't that rare, keep searching.

Krush
07-06-2006, 09:44 PM
What the hell could that possibly be anyway?

I would almost be curious to ask the guy what exactly that includes.

Lubricant, pain killers, and a rubber donut to sit on.

I've got a signed deal and money down thought, and to there credit, they didn't try to pull any of these "packages" on me. I've been thinking about this a lot, and doing a lot of looking around, and as crazy as it seems, at MSRP I'm getting a good deal. I have yet to find another dealer that will sell a black SRT for MSRP, most are at 2 grand over. So as much as I'd like to dog Liberty, they are giving me the best deal, even if the best deal isn't a deal at all. I really wish the car would get here already, so I can go write the check, forget about the deal, and just enjoy the ride.

barho
07-07-2006, 07:31 AM
Lubricant, pain killers, and a rubber donut to sit on.

I've got a signed deal and money down thought, and to there credit, they didn't try to pull any of these "packages" on me. I've been thinking about this a lot, and doing a lot of looking around, and as crazy as it seems, at MSRP I'm getting a good deal. I have yet to find another dealer that will sell a black SRT for MSRP, most are at 2 grand over. So as much as I'd like to dog Liberty, they are giving me the best deal, even if the best deal isn't a deal at all. I really wish the car would get here already, so I can go write the check, forget about the deal, and just enjoy the ride.

Krush - don't do it! Call the rebate number again. They told me yesterday that if the dealer is participating in the EP program and sells a vehicle (including the SRT) even at retail they will be caught by Jeep's auditing department and will be charged back! Make sure you let them know that you know this, and that you plan to call DCX after you get off the phone with them.

As far as the env package and chrome package..........NOWHERE DOES JEEP STATE THAT THESE ARE OPTIONS ON THE SRT!!!!

zen garage
07-07-2006, 07:56 AM
Krush...I agree dont do it. Especially if you are buying from liberty. They offered me EPP on that Silver one with the 3800 f'ing chrome package. If they offered me EP on that one they should honor it on the black one too.

You are gonna hate yourself in the morning if you let yourself get screwed by this dealer.

Krush
07-07-2006, 10:56 AM
You guys are right, I shouldn't do it, but......

If I don't buy this one I have to wait till the 2007's come out, and they're asking $2000 over MSRP for those right now. So I'll have to wait, and probably end up paying even more. I will push these guys on the EP deal and in the end if they don't treat me right I may just walk out. Hopefully they know that me walking out means they will loose 4 to 5 sales from my family and company over the next 3 years. I'm going to call Jeep right now and locate the car, then get ready to battle with the dealer.

Beltfed
07-07-2006, 11:12 AM
So I'll have to wait, and probably end up paying even more. I will push these guys on the EP deal and in the end if they don't treat me right I may just walk out. Hopefully they know that me walking out means they will loose 4 to 5 sales from my family and company over the next 3 years. I'm going to call Jeep right now and locate the car, then get ready to battle with the dealer.

Can't you go to a another dealer or a neighboring state to the buy the vehicle?

Your current dealer sounds like a bunch of a-holes.

zen garage
07-07-2006, 11:18 AM
Krush...I am in the car business and buy and sell cars everyday. Unfortunately for me sometimes irrational exhuberance gets the best of me and I overpay for my personal rides. However I have found that if you wait, you will find what you want. And pay what you want.

Look at my signiture, I overpaid for everyone of those cars, but I had to have them. Months after purchase I end up kicking myself in the ass for overpaying.

Good things come to, well you know the rest.

jms935
07-07-2006, 04:45 PM
Krush,
There are so many of these sitting on lots within a few hours of Chicago. All you have to know is what color and option package you want, then start calling around. Use the Jeep website to locate them, then call and discuss price. You could probably even get a dealer to throw in shipping. Mine did, from Detroit. If not an open carrier is a few hundred bucks from many of the close larger cities. It sure beats getting raped by Liberty Jeep.
Just my 2 cents. If I bought from those schmucks a few months ago, instead of shopping around, I would have spent about $7000 more. And now the savings are even better with the employee pricing.

Krush
07-07-2006, 08:52 PM
Well thanks for beating me in the head with the stupid stick guys, I kept looking and have found one for EP pricing. I've got a long drive ahead of me but it's definatly worth the 5 grand I can save. I've got Nascar tickets for Sunday, so if I can close this deal tomorrow it should turn out to be a great weekend.

Krush
07-07-2006, 09:35 PM
I know there were some guys from IL on the board, if your still looking for a SRT at EP pricing on Monday PM me and if I got my deal closed (ya I'm selfish like that :D ) I will give you a list of all the cars I found in the midwest.

zen garage
07-08-2006, 04:51 AM
krush...send me the info please

zen garage
07-08-2006, 08:47 AM
krush. i just searched and found these all over the midwest. fortunate for me i found one 1.5 hours from chicago. hopefully going today to pick it up. plenty of silvers and red in michigan and minnesota

Untouchable
07-08-2006, 10:47 AM
dude, go on eBay, there are a couple buy it nows for ep

Logan
07-08-2006, 01:03 PM
I just picked up my fully loaded, Black 06 Jeep SRT8 on the EP Plan yesterday at Dallas Dodge/Jeep in Dallas, TX...

MSRP was a hair over $46k, EP was $40k and change...

No 0% financing on the SRT8, but EP does apply for sure! Though even my sales dude didn't think so, I said...Go check. He did, came back surprised as heck and said, yep sure does... He wrote it up, I bought it....

Krush
07-08-2006, 06:09 PM
THANKS TO ALL THE GUYS THAT PUSHED ME TO NOT BUY FROM LIBERTY AND HOLD OUT FOR EP PRICING. I got my car today in Milwaukee, at EP pricing! Thanks again guys, your posts really did push me to keep looking and to look out of state which was the key.

Untouchable
07-08-2006, 09:57 PM
any of you guys get the 0% financing

jms935
07-08-2006, 11:32 PM
Congrats Krush. Now you can spend that money on mods if you want.

zen garage
07-09-2006, 05:54 AM
No zero financing on any SRT products but they are avail at EP pricing. I called 15 dealers yesterday morning and bought from the closest dealer that honored the EP. 85 miles from home well worth the drive.
There were several dealers that told me that the GCSRT didnt qualify for EP. I laughed and told them to have a good day. They will sit on their product for another few months waiting for an uninformed consumer.

Dr.Steve
07-18-2006, 11:35 AM
did anyone get a better term than 6.35% on a 60 month finance? . . .monthly turned out to be $643 with 10K down. . . what do you guys think???

SilverSRT8
07-18-2006, 11:42 AM
I just got mine last week w/ 6.69% from chase with $18,500 down. Mine is $410/month. Not too bad.

barho
07-18-2006, 11:52 AM
did anyone get a better term than 6.35% on a 60 month finance? . . .monthly turned out to be $643 with 10K down. . . what do you guys think???


I ended up getting 5.99% with my credit union. $11.5K on my trade and another $5K down and I am paying about $520/month.

Dr.Steve
07-19-2006, 10:12 AM
I am getting killed not having a trade-in (getting rid of a lease), and I'd rather not put down more than 10K, so I guess I'll take some solice in the fact that my interest rate at least seems to be fair. . . best my credit union could do was 7.79%, I couldn't believe it!

SRT JUNKIE
08-11-2006, 07:40 PM
Just got off the phone with the DCX rebate department. They told me if a dealer is participating in the EP program they CANNOT selectively choose which vehicles are covered. So basically....TAKE THEM TO TASK!!! AND BUY NOW!!!!!!!

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D





Do you still have that number to DCX?????

rcavalear
08-12-2006, 12:41 PM
I just ordered mine and got employee pricing

Sheri'SRT8
08-12-2006, 10:44 PM
Ordered a 2007?

kman999
08-13-2006, 09:56 AM
does anyone know if EP is applicable in Canada on the GC SRT8? checked the jeep.ca site and it seems us canucks are getting the shaft once again?

thanks

Nick
08-13-2006, 08:31 PM
Does anyone know if the 2007 SRT 8 Jeep comes with Audio controls on steering wheel? When are these actually going to be here

SRT Great
08-13-2006, 09:13 PM
Does anyone know if the 2007 SRT 8 Jeep comes with Audio controls on steering wheel? When are these actually going to be here

Are you asking because you think the '06 doesn't? Pictures of the steering wheel don't show them, but they are on the back side of the steering wheel spokes. Different at first, but I've started to really like them. If you can get a '06 at EP, I'd say you'd be ahead rather than waiting for '07. Just my thoughts