Head&cam Help!!! [Archive] - Cherokee SRT8 Forum

: Head&cam Help!!!


FastSRT8GC
05-02-2007, 06:22 PM
Finally I need some help from all of you with heads and cam. My shop is having a hard time with the install. The Jeep has been torn down for almost a month now. Here is the break down.

Tear down went fine, flow test had some impressive numbers.

Reinstall Not so good. I get a call telling me the valve to piston clearance was almost non, and the cam was the problem. We called and got a new cam to test. Same problem with this one. So now they start testing the head.

In testing the head vs the factory head it seems it has a good amount of clearance with factory not so much with the P&P heads. So it seem that the mill is wrong but they all specs seem to check out per the porter and my shop.

So my question is, did anyone run into something weird while doing these?
Did your install shop test clearance?

My first thought was the cam timing, but now I have no clue.

I would like to PROP up the DR, Franks Racing, they have been overly helpful trying to resolve this over the phone. Franks Racing shipped a cam right out for us to test to insure it was not the wrong one.
Matt at DR, is confident that the heads were not milled and is willing to help however he can. He would like to see both his heads and mine for comparison. But this puts the Jeep down longer.

My next step is to ask you guys first, then test a thicker head gasket, then send the heads back if needed.

I HATE THIS!!! (insert smiley with tears) :( :( :(

JTSRT
05-02-2007, 06:50 PM
Finally I need some help from all of you with heads and cam. My shop is having a hard time with the install. The Jeep has been torn down for almost a month now. Here is the break down.

Tear down went fine, flow test had some impressive numbers.

Reinstall Not so good. I get a call telling me the valve to piston clearance was almost non, and the cam was the problem. We called and got a new cam to test. Same problem with this one. So now they start testing the head.

In testing the head vs the factory head it seems it has a good amount of clearance with factory not so much with the P&P heads. So it seem that the mill is wrong but they all specs seem to check out per the porter and my shop.

So my question is, did anyone run into something weird while doing these?
Did your install shop test clearance?

My first thought was the cam timing, but now I have no clue.

I would like to PROP up the DR, Franks Racing, they have been overly helpful trying to resolve this over the phone. Franks Racing shipped a cam right out for us to test to insure it was not the wrong one.
Matt at DR, is confident that the heads were not milled and is willing to help however he can. He would like to see both his heads and mine for comparison. But this puts the Jeep down longer.

My next step is to ask you guys first, then test a thicker head gasket, then send the heads back if needed.

I HATE THIS!!! (insert smiley with tears) :( :( :(


I don't know if it helps but I am going to have H/C done at high horse performance (HHP) in delaware. I think they are the only guys that have chrysler mechanics. Don't know if they can or will help but its worth a shot to see. Good luck.

FastSRT8GC
05-02-2007, 07:08 PM
This is my problem, I found guy willing to work on it, in fact very excited to work on it. He normally works on Grand National, GTO, VETTES and TBSS. But he just purchased a R/T and was interested.

I just hope something is wrong with the head or cam timing, otherwise I dont know what to do.

pjvreede
05-03-2007, 06:53 AM
Finally I need some help from all of you with heads and cam. My shop is having a hard time with the install. The Jeep has been torn down for almost a month now. Here is the break down.

Tear down went fine, flow test had some impressive numbers.

Reinstall Not so good. I get a call telling me the valve to piston clearance was almost non, and the cam was the problem. We called and got a new cam to test. Same problem with this one. So now they start testing the head.

In testing the head vs the factory head it seems it has a good amount of clearance with factory not so much with the P&P heads. So it seem that the mill is wrong but they all specs seem to check out per the porter and my shop.

So my question is, did anyone run into something weird while doing these?
Did your install shop test clearance?

My first thought was the cam timing, but now I have no clue.

I would like to PROP up the DR, Franks Racing, they have been overly helpful trying to resolve this over the phone. Franks Racing shipped a cam right out for us to test to insure it was not the wrong one.
Matt at DR, is confident that the heads were not milled and is willing to help however he can. He would like to see both his heads and mine for comparison. But this puts the Jeep down longer.

My next step is to ask you guys first, then test a thicker head gasket, then send the heads back if needed.

I HATE THIS!!! (insert smiley with tears) :( :( :(

?Safest to have DR modify your heads? More down time, but then you know that it's not a head problem should the clearance problem not resolve. Would Matt help you in expediting this? I'd rather do that than use a thicker head gasket that would drop the compression ratio. Good luck in getting this resolved

BuilderBill
05-03-2007, 07:19 AM
This is my problem, I found guy willing to work on it, in fact very excited to work on it. He normally works on Grand National, GTO, VETTES and TBSS. But he just purchased a R/T and was interested.

I just hope something is wrong with the head or cam timing, otherwise I dont know what to do.
Sorry to see this post FAST.
I sure am at a loss to the incompatibility of the new pieces.
I'll bet you are not the 1st to have these issues, some people do not post the problems that they encountered with their installs.
What a great forum though....no smart a** comments on your dilemma.
Keep us posted...this will help someone in the future.
What a pain to be without your ride. Glad you have a good installer that checked the clearances.
Bill

HoustonSRT-8
05-03-2007, 08:25 AM
Wow, sounds like you got a real winner of a shop there.....:rolleyes:
























I just had to throw in a sarcastic comment since it seems Bill was feeling lost without one. :D

FastSRT8GC
05-03-2007, 08:46 AM
Yea Bill, This really sucks. But your right, I am glad that they took the time to check everything rather then just bolting it up and going.

My problem is i have nobody to blame, till i find out exactly what the problem is.

I can rule out the cam.

I can not rule out the head yet. Matt at DR has been great with support on this issue and is very confidant the heads are not the problem. But they are cores that others send in so the possibility for something being done before Matt received it is a possibility.

I also can not rule out the shop, this is all new to them. Working with GM then working on a Mopar might be two different animals. But his reputation on the GTO forum is excellent and the fact that he measured all the tolerances speaks volumes.

So here i sit banging my head:confused:

FastSRT8GC
05-03-2007, 08:49 AM
Wow, sounds like you got a real winner of a shop there.....:rolleyes:



I just had to throw in a sarcastic comment since it seems Bill was feeling lost without one. :D


YEP, either they are top notch by checking everything before they installed it or they don't understand mopar. I HOPE for the first option.

gculver
05-03-2007, 09:12 AM
The Hellfire should not have a clearance issue-if the install is correct.(given the heads are not milled) GC

GRNENVY
05-03-2007, 09:52 AM
Chris I have a couple tricks up my sleeve.
When we go over there today we will figure something out.
cya around 2

FastSRT8GC
05-03-2007, 11:02 AM
Chris I have a couple tricks up my sleeve.
When we go over there today we will figure something out.
cya around 2

I am very thankful for you taking the ride out with me to see WTF is going on. We WILL figure it out.

FastSRT8GC
05-03-2007, 11:14 AM
The Hellfire should not have a clearance issue-if the install is correct.(given the heads are not milled) GC

gculver,

the Hellfire should be perfect I agree. Actually with the help of Steve we were able to check the stock, little boy, and hellfire. ALL are OK

So now like you said, its the mill or the install. I hope Nick and i figure something out today.

Inferno SRT8
05-03-2007, 12:37 PM
Im watching this closely guys keep us informed, hope you get her back and running soon.

FastSRT8GC
05-03-2007, 09:28 PM
Nick(Grnevy) and I went down to the shop today. Inspected both heads and the DR ones seem to be milled a bit much. We will be sending them back for inspection by Matt since we are all dumbfounded on how this happen.

My plan of attack is to also send my factory heads to Matt Two day and Hope he can expidite this process of porting them. I will just use the factory heads that have no clearance issues at all.

The possibility exists that my motor is closer to the limits of it tolerances and only my heads will work with my block. To make sure nothing is wrong or goes wrong from here out we will us the factory heads. So more down time more waiting but almost a 100% result.

I would also like to thank Matt for working with me on this issue and his willingness to resolve it. He has handled this problem with the up most profession. Also my shop has gone over and above by testing, measuring everything many times over, and i am glad they cought the problem before it was sealed back up and turned over.

Will update when i have more info.

BuilderBill
05-03-2007, 09:37 PM
Nick(Grnevy) and I went down to the shop today. Inspected both heads and the DR ones seem to be milled a bit much. We will be sending them back for inspection by Matt since we are all dumbfounded on how this happen.

My plan of attack is to also send my factory heads to Matt Two day and Hope he can expidite this process of porting them. I will just use the factory heads that have no clearance issues at all.

The possibility exists that my motor is closer to the limits of it tolerances and only my heads will work with my block. To make sure nothing is wrong or goes wrong from here out we will us the factory heads. So more down time more waiting but almost a 100% result.

I would also like to thank Matt for working with me on this issue and his willingness to resolve it. He has handled this problem with the up most profession. Also my shop has gone over and above by testing, measuring everything many times over, and i am glad they cought the problem before it was sealed back up and turned over.

Will update when i have more info.
Fast,
Ouch, obviously the heads were not CC'd before shipping to you?? This would have caught the severe mill wouldn't it?
Once again, it was a good thing your installer checked and re-checked. Kinda like "measure twice and cut once" in my profession.
So far the only loss has been a HUGE amount of downtime which is a pain.
Sorry bud, a couple of months from now we will have a GREAT time at Rockingham!
Bill

BuilderBill
05-03-2007, 09:39 PM
The Hellfire should not have a clearance issue-if the install is correct.(given the heads are not milled) GC GC...Good call as usual.
Bill


PS. let me know now if you see any mistake with my progress. Don't be shy.:D:D

FastSRT8GC
05-03-2007, 10:14 PM
Fast,
Ouch, obviously the heads were not CC'd before shipping to you?? This would have caught the severe mill wouldn't it?
Once again, it was a good thing your installer checked and re-checked. Kinda like "measure twice and cut once" in my profession.
So far the only loss has been a HUGE amount of downtime which is a pain.
Sorry bud, a couple of months from now we will have a GREAT time at Rockingham!
Bill

Bill I really can not blame anyone. If my shop is correct then yes they are either a different tolerance head, milled, or since Matt uses cores someone might have tried to dupe him.

If Matt is correct his heads are fine and for some reason just will not work on my Jeep for whatever reason.

Or my shop is really good at making it look/sound like they have a clue, but I don't think this is the case.

SO until i have a definitive answer i will hold my tongue and pray my patients holds up but it wont last much longer.

Fastest H-Town Realtor
05-04-2007, 12:14 PM
If the heads were milled, the shop who did the port work should have recognized that. Milling thins the sealing surface of the head and is see-able by the naked eye if you know your product.

That being said, I don't think anyone would go out and mill heads then send them off to trade for ported ones. Unless the milling FUBAR'D them. Then they should have been even more obvious. If you have your stockers, then a quick comparative deck hieght mic would tell the story. Or a cc'ing, like suggested by Bill the Builder...

If the installer is correct and the valve clearance is not sufficient, not only kuddos for catching it, but for not wasting your head/ piston/ valve assmbley with just bolting it up. That would have cost you real money.

Although it is early to assume, my nickle is on the shop who ported the heads. Cores ALWAYS should be checked against stockers to remove any doubt of modification. If you take core trades, it is up to you to mic the trade to ensure the meet spec. Not just throw em on a CNC machine and box em up for the next dolla...er...customer.

FastSRT8GC
05-04-2007, 12:44 PM
Once again I am unsure who really is at fault thus far.

I will tell you that the heads mic out all most the same from valve cover to deck. The problem is a volume test of the combustion chamber showed the ported heads were 4cc less than the stock ones.

In no way would this work with a Forced motor.

I talked to Matt once again today and he is onboard and will expidite my p&p on the factory heads and then we should be back up to speed. Fingers crossed!!!!

BuilderBill
05-04-2007, 02:35 PM
Once again I am unsure who really is at fault thus far.

I will tell you that the heads mic out all most the same from valve cover to deck. The problem is a volume test of the combustion chamber showed the ported heads were 4cc less than the stock ones.

In no way would this work with a Forced motor.

I talked to Matt once again today and he is onboard and will expidite my p&p on the factory heads and then we should be back up to speed. Fingers crossed!!!!
Once again, Kudos to the installer for taking his time and not just slapping parts together. That could have would up costly with the blower install.
Bill

Mango
05-15-2007, 05:24 AM
Wow, I've learned so much by reading this thread. I'm about to do Heads & Intake on my truck. Thanks for posting this Fast.

Any resolution thus far?

FastSRT8GC
05-15-2007, 07:49 AM
Wow, I've learned so much by reading this thread. I'm about to do Heads & Intake on my truck. Thanks for posting this Fast.

Any resolution thus far?


Mango, Both the DR heads and my heads were sent back to DR. We are waiting for my factory heads to be P&P then we can begin reinstall. I think it was just an odd set of circumstances.

I believe from the flow test and the way Matt has handled everything at Dynamic I would have done it all over again the same. I am waiting for his input on the comparison of the two heads and his input here also.

The other good thing is that the Supercharger should be shipped this week and I will not have to do a tear down twice!!

slow91
05-15-2007, 12:53 PM
Wow, I've learned so much by reading this thread. I'm about to do Heads & Intake on my truck. Thanks for posting this Fast.

Any resolution thus far?

Mango, which intake??

Mango
05-15-2007, 02:07 PM
I'm going to use the stock manifold for now, and later probably go to the HHP Ported intake manifold.

FastMatt
05-15-2007, 09:53 PM
I DHL delivered the Ported heads back to me today. Based on EVERY place you can measure the head the heads are milled 3 thousandths and this is what we mill them to hive a good clean deck. That’s measuring using a depth micrometer to measure the deck to the edge of the chamber, deck to the spark plug hole edge, the deck to the step for the block pin in the head bolt hole, deck to the mill check notch, then using calipers to measure the deck to the valve cover rail, and from the deck to the rocker shaft pedestal. All of these measure 3 to 4 thousandths less then your stock head that came off your truck.

I'm going to CC the chambers tomorrow also and see what that comes up with.

What’s really funny is wile I was on the phone with the shop doing your work before you sent the heads back he also measured this and came up with the same 3 thousandths I do now. But the only place he measured was the valve cover rail to the deck, but then I guess he later told you that the valve cover rail despite being a milled flat that must be in speck is not a “close tolerance place”. Now what do you think the odds would be that on 1 set of heads Dodge mess up and made the valve cover rail 30 thousandths tall and that very same set of heads We messed up and milled 27 thousandths too much to make that speck correct?

I’ll gladly finish porting your cores and send them to you but thy are going to be exactly the same as the ones that you sent back.

I think your problem still is in cam timing. The Shop that is working on your car called me 3 times asking me how to set of the cam timing 2 of them telling me that thy for sure had it wrong before. Thy also talked to Steve from Frank Racing and he also informed them that thy had there cam timing off. Also that thy were using mirrors see around the oil pump to check the timing marks VS removing the oil pump. Thy are a well respected GM LS-X shop and I know this to be true, but this is there first time working on a Hemi.

I am very sorry if at any point in my reply post to this I seem upset in any way. But this thread has already cost me sales (and this would be understandable if we did make a mistake), and now I get the heads and there is nothing wrong with them.

What’s really amasses me is a 30 thousandths mill on a head is a HUGE amount, that would be visible to the eye. I cant see how anybody that has any experience with heads could not clearly see that there was NO 30 thousandths cut done to these heads. Something is realy not adding up. I have a strong feeling that it's more of "it must be that" thing not because any facts truly point to it.

Like I told you before I'm willing to help in any way but when you get your heads back thy are going to be exactly the same as the 1st set you sent back. Therefore your problem will still not be solved. I am willing to sepend as much time as needed to help you figure this out.

generalconfusion
05-16-2007, 01:36 AM
I guess thats a good reason for me to just build a 392 or 426 with the stock factory cam and heads and just have a torque monster!

gut2727
05-16-2007, 09:21 AM
HI Guys,
I can totally understand what Matt is saying above (tactfully I might add) and just want to add that many of us (myself included) have received head and cam packages from Matt that installed without a problem.

I am not at all surprised to see how helpful Matt is being in this case - that is his way - but think its a shame this instance is calling into question the quality of what he provides in any way. Afterall, my dealer installed my heads and 273 without a problem!!!

just my $.02

Chris

FastMatt
05-16-2007, 11:09 AM
well we cc'd the heads, There is less then 1 cc difference in the heads. To be Exact there is 0.75 of 1 cc difference.

Whatís really interesting is the shop that has your truck told us thy cc'd the heads. But the carbon was not cleaned out of ANY of the combustion chambers on your stock heads, and there is no oily residue in any of the chambers. So what did thy cc it with? and thy CC'd the chamber with out ever cleaning the carbon out of the chamber?

Something here is really not adding up.

FastSRT8GC
05-16-2007, 02:36 PM
Thanks Matt for taking the time to compare both. I know you are bending over backwards trying to rectify the situation. I appreciate everything you have done, and am sorry if you lost any business due to this thread.

I continue to say that if I had to do it all over again the heads would still be purchased from Matt. To ALL i say do not let this stop you from buying from Matt. He probally has the best flowing heads available and customer service that is bar none!!!

Inferno SRT8
05-16-2007, 03:32 PM
I have not yet bought my heads but have talked to Matt a few times and he stands by his products and his customer service as you can see is second to none.

pjvreede
05-17-2007, 09:14 AM
well we cc'd the heads, There is less then 1 cc difference in the heads. To be Exact there is 0.75 of 1 cc difference.

Whatís really interesting is the shop that has your truck told us thy cc'd the heads. But the carbon was not cleaned out of ANY of the combustion chambers on your stock heads, and there is no oily residue in any of the chambers. So what did thy cc it with? and thy CC'd the chamber with out ever cleaning the carbon out of the chamber?

Something here is really not adding up.

Matt:

For those of us who don't live in the southwest, can you post a list of reputable shops thoughout the country who work on hemi's to do the install? It would resolve problems that are beyond your control (like noted above), and would help re-assure your potentital customers that the install will go without a hitch. Thanks