NAG1 Transmission info and input torque capacity [Archive] - Cherokee SRT8 Forum

: NAG1 Transmission info and input torque capacity


BuilderBill
04-30-2007, 03:11 PM
Ok, I'm starting to worry about the power of my 426 stroker which should be dynoed by the end of the week and then shipped to ASM for the supercharger install and electronics.
I searched out our NAG1 transmission and found the following link:

http://www.nitrox******.com/showthread.php?t=810&highlight=NAG1
Please remove the x after nitro in the above link. It won't let me enter the word nitro!!:confused:


What concerns me a little is the torque input rating of 580 Newton Meters which I have converted into 428 Foot lbs. (hope my math and Google is correct).

I hope we don't have this thing grenade! So far I have not heard of ANY issues with the stock NAG1.
Bill

Razorecko
04-30-2007, 03:24 PM
Ok, I'm starting to worry about the power of my 426 stroker which should be dynoed by the end of the week and then shipped to ASM for the supercharger install and electronics.
I searched out our NAG1 transmission and found the following link:

http://www.nitrox******.com/showthread.php?t=810&highlight=NAG1
Please remove the x after nitro in the above link. It won't let me enter the word nitro!!:confused:


What concerns me a little is the torque input rating of 580 Newton Meters which I have converted into 428 Foot lbs. (hope my math and Google is correct).

I hope we don't have this thing grenade! So far I have not heard of ANY issues with the stock NAG1.
Bill

What disappoints me is the fact that this trans runs through alot of weaker powered DC cars. Which to me shows that DC in order to save costs at the last minute said " well lets just dump this trans in here" thats in every other car. What sucks is that we all know MB has wayyy stronger transmissions available. If this trans is near its limits than i can predict that alot of gcsrt8s' will have problems near 30k -60k miles with the trannys. It seems that these cars are coming out of the factory almost 'maxed' out. If thats the case than my next car will come "FI" from the factory.

GotStroke?
04-30-2007, 03:32 PM
Can't get the link to work even after removing the X.

rainmaker
04-30-2007, 03:33 PM
Ok, I'm starting to worry about the power of my 426 stroker which should be dynoed by the end of the week and then shipped to ASM for the supercharger install and electronics.
I searched out our NAG1 transmission and found the following link:

http://www.nitrox******.com/showthread.php?t=810&highlight=NAG1
Please remove the x after nitro in the above link. It won't let me enter the word nitro!!:confused:


What concerns me a little is the torque input rating of 580 Newton Meters which I have converted into 428 Foot lbs. (hope my math and Google is correct).

I hope we don't have this thing grenade! So far I have not heard of ANY issues with the stock NAG1.
Bill

I wondered how long before a mildly modded SRT8 would kill the stock tranny/ TC. Guess only time will tell.... IMO the transfer case will probably be the source of more problems over time rather than the tranny....but again time will tell...

Bill since you like being a pioneer ;) why don't you look into using the 7-speed tranny from the MB GL-class or the W5A1000 from the MB V12 Bi Turbo for us. :)

GotStroke?
04-30-2007, 03:34 PM
The MB 7A doesn't have much TQ capacity either.

Razorecko
04-30-2007, 03:38 PM
I wondered how long before a mildly modded SRT8 would kill the stock tranny/ TC. Guess only time will tell.... IMO the transfer case will probably be the source of more problems over time rather than the tranny....but again time will tell...

Bill since you like being a pioneer ;) why don't you look into using the 7-speed tranny from the MB GL-class or the W5A1000 from the MB V12 Bi Turbo for us. :)

Well i already had the actuator go out in my transfer case at 12k miles.

GotStroke?
04-30-2007, 03:51 PM
So I'm guessing NAG1 is synonymous with W5A580?

BuilderBill
04-30-2007, 04:05 PM
I wondered how long before a mildly modded SRT8 would kill the stock tranny/ TC. Guess only time will tell.... IMO the transfer case will probably be the source of more problems over time rather than the tranny....but again time will tell...

Bill since you like being a pioneer ;) why don't you look into using the 7-speed tranny from the MB GL-class or the W5A1000 from the MB V12 Bi Turbo for us. :)
I'll just bet a fresh W5A1000 (738 Foot Lbs max input) is a bit pricy. I did have someone tell me about Hughes Performance transmission.
http://www.hughesperformance.com/
Until I read the trans info, I had thought that our transmission was one part we would not have to worry about if we did a few mods...like increase the hp by about 200hp or so. :confused:
Bill

generalconfusion
04-30-2007, 04:18 PM
As you know this is the same tranny in the E55. Some of those guys are making over 500hp and 560lbs of torque to the rear wheels all day long and I have not heard of a single failure.......and the S/C engine has been around since 03.

GotStroke?
04-30-2007, 04:36 PM
From Kleeman's site:

Engine Gearbox Constant load

All 7-Speed W7A700 700 Nm

M113 - V8 OE Kompressor 5-Speed W5A900 900 Nm

M275 - V12 N/A 5-Speed W5A1000 1000 Nm

M275 - V12 Bi Turbo 5-Speed W5A1000 1000 Nm

M113 - V8 N/A 5-Speed W5A580 580 Nm

M112 - All 5-Speed W5A330 330 Nm

BuilderBill
04-30-2007, 05:13 PM
As you know this is the same tranny in the E55. Some of those guys are making over 500hp and 560lbs of torque to the rear wheels all day long and I have not heard of a single failure.......and the S/C engine has been around since 03. General...point well taken even though it is bit tougher to get your Jeep moving that your E55!:D

generalconfusion
04-30-2007, 11:18 PM
General...point well taken even though it is bit tougher to get your Jeep moving that your E55!:D


AMEN to that!

Go~RillaWRX
05-01-2007, 08:58 AM
^not only that, but our very wide tires + AWD + 5klb = alot more load on the transmission at launch. I think if an E55 can put 500hp to the wheels and not blow the trans we should probably really start worring at about 400 AWHP.

BuilderBill
05-01-2007, 09:18 AM
^not only that, but our very wide tires + AWD + 5klb = alot more load on the transmission at launch. I think if an E55 can put 500hp to the wheels and not blow the trans we should probably really start worring at about 400 AWHP.
Go-Rilla, Thats were I'm at.
Currently my stocker puts out 374AWD hp. The guys with heads, cams, juice have to be 475 AWD hp ++.
When I rent the track I put 100+ runs on. I may make fewer passes on the new supercharged stroker when installed. The driveline is certainly a duty cycle related issue.
Bill

Go~RillaWRX
05-01-2007, 10:00 AM
^Interesting. I would say we are pushing the envelope of this trans then. One thing that we may consider to help is a real good trans fluid and maybe another trans cooler or just a more efficient one. Coming from a manual trans Subaru, I can tell you with alot of HP, a trans can last one run, 12 runs or no runs. I blew up my trans in my 315 whp wrx after 4 months at that hp. My buddy blew his up on his first track launch. AWD and transmissions and high HP do not mix well. I am also kind of a newb when it comes to AUTO trans, but can we upgrade to a stronger gear set? What about the deisel guys, they run auto trans and some have over 1000 ft/lbs and launch in 4wd. You think they could have some beneficial input for us?

Razorecko
05-01-2007, 10:26 AM
Well the big killer of tranny's is the heat generated from high hp. We need to start working on more mods to keep the trans running, like said above, tranny coolers & maybe better fluid, or fluid changes more often.

Go~RillaWRX
05-01-2007, 11:25 AM
I used this crazy Lucas fluid in my rex, I think thats why my trans held up better than my buddies. I will check it out.

BuilderBill
05-01-2007, 12:38 PM
Well the big killer of tranny's is the heat generated from high hp. We need to start working on more mods to keep the trans running, like said above, tranny coolers & maybe better fluid, or fluid changes more often.
Agree on the heat, Hemi's & Nag's hate heat!:mad:
Not a great idea to power brake the hell out of these. I believe I read where the PCM pulls timing during a prolonged (over 2 seconds maybe) power brake on the line.
Bill

Str8Srt8
06-02-2007, 11:31 PM
So is this transmission the reason why we have a 3500 lb tow capacity?

Inferno SRT8
06-03-2007, 01:17 AM
So is this transmission the reason why we have a 3500 lb tow capacity?


You can either have outrite speed or towing capacity cant have both.

awdrocks
06-03-2007, 01:22 AM
Definitely get some better fluid. I'm about to switch to Amzoil fluids on my entire car.

Get a tranny cooler and GET A TRANNY TEMP GAUGE. You have to keep those temps in check. I have one an never lay on the gas if im 175-180* and above. Sometimes I will be in traffic and the temps can reach 195-200+ and you would never even know it.... hammer it then and you could take your tranny with you.

Another big safe guard is get a beefed up torque converter. Usually the TC will go, and take the tranny with it.

The first thing that will most likely give is the transfer case. I know you guys have a Frankensteined transfer case that has been beefed up for the extra horsies... good thing.

Call http://www.levelten.com/

They can definitely beef up your transfer case, and I would not be surprised if they already have a beefed up W5A580, the fact that this tranny is in so many other cars might have saved your a$$ ;), as maybe they have done this tranny up for other vehicles, like MB.

They are going to bullet proof my transfer case. I'm lucky enough that my tranny sits in the 05+ stangs so the after market is looking great. They are going to rebuild mine to hold 700+rwhp, is what they claim. He has some test mules now.

awdrocks
06-03-2007, 01:24 AM
You can either have outrite speed or towing capacity cant have both.

I can tow 7,000 in 4x4 and 7,300 in 2wd ;)

Class III/IV setup from factory.

Blown7
06-03-2007, 05:57 AM
You can either have outrite speed or towing capacity cant have both.

Um.......... not correct.

Well I asked that question at one of the SRT chats with the SRT Engineering and to paraphase their answers the ONLY reason the GCSRT isn't rated for heavy towing is the way the rear suspension is designed it can't handle the high tongue weight. And thats the only reason why.


Jeff

Inferno SRT8
06-03-2007, 08:23 AM
Um.......... not correct.

Well I asked that question at one of the SRT chats with the SRT Engineering and to paraphase their answers the ONLY reason the GCSRT isn't rated for heavy towing is the way the rear suspension is designed it can't handle the high tongue weight. And thats the only reason why.


Jeff

Let me rephrase, in our SRT8's you can have either speed or towing capacity, they engineered it for speed, be it be the transmission or the BS reason the engineers gave as to why its only a 3500Ib capacity.

Food for thought in the SS once you replace the TQ converter for better performance the towing capacity is cut nearly in half. And thats FACT.

awdrocks
06-03-2007, 10:56 AM
Another thing to consider for high TQ. The initial SHOCK of the launch to the transfer case and transmission. That is usually when something "snaps". 40-45 series tires don't have much give and will transfer most of the shock to the drive train.

One of my very near future mods are street/strip slicks. I don't need them for the traction. But I want a nice big sidewall to absorb some of the shock. I'm doing a 15'' race wheel.

Str8Srt8
06-03-2007, 03:32 PM
Let me rephrase, in our SRT8's you can have either speed or towing capacity, they engineered it for speed, be it be the transmission or the BS reason the engineers gave as to why its only a 3500Ib capacity.

Food for thought in the SS once you replace the TQ converter for better performance the towing capacity is cut nearly in half. And thats FACT.

I searched the Q&A and SRT Engineers mentioned the following:
http://www.cherokeesrt8.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162&page=4&highlight=tow
Post #36

The trail tow rating is based on a number of factors, which include:

- Cooling in Death Valley at WOT
- Driveline durablity
- Parking gear strength
- Axle GAWR ratings


1) What mods can better our cooling?
2) What mods can beaf up our driveline?
3) Are parking mods possible?
4) How do you determine Gross Axle Weight Rating?

Inferno SRT8
06-03-2007, 03:34 PM
I searched the Q&A and SRT Engineers mentioned the following:
http://www.cherokeesrt8.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162&page=4&highlight=tow
Post #36

The trail tow rating is based on a number of factors, which include:

- Cooling in Death Valley at WOT
- Driveline durablity
- Parking gear strength
- Axle GAWR ratings


1) What mods can better our cooling?
2) What mods can beaf up our driveline?
3) Are parking mods possible?
4) How do you determine Gross Axle Weight Rating?


Im sure being stuck at 76% WOT has a tad to do with this also.

ARH1956
06-03-2007, 04:30 PM
General...point well taken even though it is bit tougher to get your Jeep moving that your E55!:DOur transmission is also the same as used in the 2005 SL65 AMG which has 604HP/738 ft. lbs. & weighs 4,500 lbs.! Stock, this auto turns low 11 sec. 1/4's @ 125 mph+. So the transmission isn't as much a limiting factor as many expect.

GotStroke?
06-03-2007, 06:19 PM
Our transmission is also the same as used in the 2005 SL65 AMG which has 604HP/738 ft. lbs. & weighs 4,500 lbs.! Stock, this auto turns low 11 sec. 1/4's @ 125 mph+. So the transmission isn't as much a limiting factor as many expect.

It's not the exact same version, the 1000lb/ft rated version has different internals. I'm sure someone has a kit or parts available to build ours to this spec though.

BuilderBill
12-27-2007, 08:54 AM
UPDATE:
As most of us know by now Renntech does now rebuild our NAG1 Tranny's with upgraded parts of about $ 2,500.

I have been tinkering with my spare that was replaced with the Renntech.
I learned:
If the transmission is overfilled, the plastic float in the electrohydraulic valve body is forced closed, thereby keeping the fluid from being churned into foam by the rotating mass in the case.
If underfilled, air is mixed with the oil, making a foamy oil that does not shift very well.
The filter rests on the the bottom of the pan, strange at first, but there should NOT be any junk in the bottom of the pan. Actually, the filter is held into the body by the pan.
After 20,000 miles (ok, and about 150 1/4 mile passes) the trans. looks perfect.
Pretty neat shifting setup with the solenoids in the electrohydraulic valve body.
A photo of those damn "O" rings in the electronic plug. The pink "O" rings are the replacements.Bottom line......what is BuilderBill and Blown7 up to?:confused:
Bill

SOUTHERNHOTROD
12-27-2007, 11:43 AM
UPDATE:
As most of us know by now Renntech does now rebuild our NAG1 Tranny's with upgraded parts of about $ 2,500.

I have been tinkering with my spare that was replaced with the Renntech.
I learned:
If the transmission is overfilled, the plastic float in the electrohydraulic valve body is forced closed, thereby keeping the fluid from being churned into foam by the rotating mass in the case.
If underfilled, air is mixed with the oil, making a foamy oil that does not shift very well.
The filter rests on the the bottom of the pan, strange at first, but there should NOT be any junk in the bottom of the pan. Actually, the filter is held into the body by the pan.
After 20,000 miles (ok, and about 150 1/4 mile passes) the trans. looks perfect.
Pretty neat shifting setup with the solenoids in the electrohydraulic valve body.
A photo of those damn "O" rings in the electronic plug. The pink "O" rings are the replacements.Bottom line......what is BuilderBill and Blown7 up to?:confused:
Bill
Bill, can you give me a call @ 888-244-4364? I would like to talk to you about your RennTech trans.

Thanks!

navyavi469
12-27-2007, 06:33 PM
Yes, Bill, Just what are you and Blown7 up to, because I sure as heck know what I'm up to. I contacted a MOPAR transmission specialist out in California today about upgrading to something that could handle 1000hp... pretty good conversation.

Maybe you could let me in on your secret and I'll fill you in on what I find out.

BuilderBill
12-27-2007, 06:52 PM
Yes, Bill, Just what are you and Blown7 up to, because I sure as heck know what I'm up to. I contacted a MOPAR transmission specialist out in California today about upgrading to something that could handle 1000hp... pretty good conversation.

Maybe you could let me in on your secret and I'll fill you in on what I find out.
PM sent
Bill

Untouchable
12-27-2007, 07:05 PM
what are we, chopped liver? the peanut gallery would like to know as well:D

FastSRT8GC
12-27-2007, 07:22 PM
what are we, chopped liver? the peanut gallery would like to know as well:D

yea bill, I am suprised you two are keeping so much under raps. F/I project, Trans Project, Front Diff project, PCM project???????


I trusted you, now your cheating on me:flame:

navyavi469
12-27-2007, 07:29 PM
Bill do you have a spare WA580 I could buy?

Blown7
12-28-2007, 08:31 AM
yea bill, I am suprised you two are keeping so much under raps. F/I project, Trans Project, Front Diff project, PCM project???????


I trusted you, now your cheating on me:flame:

We don't mean to be this way, I know Bill quite well and as for myself I think if things were more open by other vendors both of us would be wide open as would like to be. For example have you ever got a straight up good open forum explaination by a certain tuning vendor about why the transfercase/torque management was being screwed up by a blue flash tool?
No just an answer to send a file for a fix.......

When I blew up my engine I was surprised that I read it here posted in the forum by someone I certainly didn't tell directly........

And alot of other things to much to mention, heck I've argued with a vendor here on another board that their camshaft spec cards should be posted.......

There seems to be alot of competition about tuning/aftermarket parts for this new market of Hemis and people will outright steal anothers ideas for a little saving of their own research dollars.
(A certain air filter assembly comes to mind from months ago)

I myself had to clam up some after I realized that I have tens of thousands of dollars in R&D on the tuning side.

At this time it's not a matter of keeping anyone in the dark it's a matter of protecting our investments till the time is right to announce some nice things in the very near future.

Jeff

BuilderBill
12-28-2007, 09:21 AM
We don't mean to be this way, I know Bill quite well and as for myself I think if things were more open by other vendors both of us would be wide open as would like to be. For example have you ever got a straight up good open forum explaination by a certain tuning vendor about why the transfercase/torque management was being screwed up by a blue flash tool?
No just an answer to send a file for a fix.......

When I blew up my engine I was surprised that I read it here posted in the forum by someone I certainly didn't tell directly........

And alot of other things to much to mention, heck I've argued with a vendor here on another board that their camshaft spec cards should be posted.......

There seems to be alot of competition about tuning/aftermarket parts for this new market of Hemis and people will outright steal anothers ideas for a little saving of their own research dollars.
(A certain air filter assembly comes to mind from months ago)

I myself had to clam up some after I realized that I have tens of thousands of dollars in R&D on the tuning side.

At this time it's not a matter of keeping anyone in the dark it's a matter of protecting our investments till the time is right to announce some nice things in the very near future.

Jeff

Great summary Jeff.
It makes NO sense to come out with a bunch of premature hype!
Look how long we have waited for some of the things that have NEVER materialized.
Anything we come out with will be released after testing is completed.
As an engineer, I realize that TOTAL testing is not possible even for OEM's.
Hang in there guys....no hype intended.
Bill

navyavi469
12-28-2007, 09:43 AM
Back to the title, the transmission. Bill I had a good discussion with Southern Hotrod and we'd like to guage intrest for those who would like SH to do a clutch upgrade on the NAG1 (W5A580). If we could get at least five people committed to this upgrade, which would cost around $500 (shipping not included) then it might be worth our time.

There are a few of us who are going to be running very high horsepower applications. Now I dont directly know of any transmission failures or the specific failure mode therein, but I have heard of them. The few that I do know about happened in the middle east at the 637AWHP mark. If anyone else knows any specifics about transmission failures then please post up what you have!

In the meantime I'm on the hunt for a spare NAG1.

BuilderBill
12-28-2007, 09:57 AM
Back to the title, the transmission. Bill I had a good discussion with Southern Hotrod and we'd like to guage intrest for those who would like SH to do a clutch upgrade on the NAG1 (W5A580). If we could get at least five people committed to this upgrade, which would cost around $500 (shipping not included) then it might be worth our time.

There are a few of us who are going to be running very high horsepower applications. Now I dont directly know of any transmission failures or the specific failure mode therein, but I have heard of them. The few that I do know about happened in the middle east at the 637AWHP mark. If anyone else knows any specifics about transmission failures then please post up what you have!

In the meantime I'm on the hunt for a spare NAG1.
Navy,
I bought mine for $1,500 from a wrecked Jeep, 6,000 miles.
Please don't limit yourself to an SRT Jeep only for your search.
You can swap the front bell housing and tail housings rather quickly.

Please ask Eddie to see if the W5A900 or W5A1000 clutches are any different. I do know that the output shafts are different.

If anyone has a broken NAG1, I would love to buy it and see what component failed so we could start beefing it up.
Bill

navyavi469
12-28-2007, 11:03 AM
Bill,

Eddie is monitoring this thread; and he's the one who suggested we gauge intrest in getting some folkds interested in doing an upgrade. I honestly dont know who will offer the best solution, right now it seems like I have 10 differnet companies working on solutions for me so I'm trying to keep my options as open as possible.

In the immediate time, we're working on securing a spare tranny, simply becuase it does us no good to do a 750whp pass on the dyno and then have to trailer it off.

On a side note, I order my 9" rear from WD today, aluminum 3rd member with ARB locker and pump assembly. Mark was plesant to talk to, but boy this sure is an expensive rear end, its like buying a thong for J-Lo.

SOUTHERNHOTROD
12-28-2007, 11:41 AM
Keep an eye on this thread too...

http://www.cherokeesrt8.com/forums/showthread.php?p=124302#post124302 (http://www.cherokeesrt8.com/forums/showthread.php?p=124302#post124302)

BJB
12-28-2007, 12:35 PM
PM sent
Bill

Bill,

You're going keep your Michigan "Br i and y an" friends updated, correct? :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

Brian

BuilderBill
12-28-2007, 12:39 PM
Bill,

You're going keep your Michigan "Br i and y an" friends updated, correct? :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

Brian
There are no secrets!
I compare notes with Bryan a couple of times a week.
That is one HELL of a ride you will have.
It will be very interesting to see how it all goes on the dyno. It seems you have a good handle on the fuel system.
I do wonder if it may throw a code though with the fuel return.
Bill

BJB
12-28-2007, 12:44 PM
There are no secrets!
I compare notes with Bryan a couple of times a week.
That is one HELL of a ride you will have.
It will be very interesting to see how it all goes on the dyno. It seems you have a good handle on the fuel system.
I do wonder if it may throw a code though with the fuel return.
Bill

Bill,

Your right, we are in some "un-charted waters" We won't know the results until we try:o But the good thing is there are some excellent people in this forum and we will get it worked out.

Brian

Blown-WK
12-28-2007, 02:44 PM
Have you guys ever considered any of the MB trannys from any of the 65 models? They have some modded ones running 1000ft/lbs. I know there would be some TCM issues but maybe its a possibilty.

AMG SPEEDSHIFT 5-speed automatic transmission with steering-wheel gearshift paddles


The drive power is transferred to the wheels in the new S 65 AMG via the AMG SPEEDSHIFT five-speed automatic transmission with AMG steering-wheel gearshift paddles and DIRECT SELECT gearshift. The conventional automatic selector lever in the centre console is replaced by a lever on the steering column, which the driver nudges to select the transmission settings 'P', 'N', 'R' and 'D'.


The driver can use the 'S/C/M' mode button in the centre console to select from the 'Sport', 'Comfort' and 'Manual' shift programmes that not only change the transmission characteristics but also the accelerator response and the spring/damper settings of the AMG sports suspension based on Active Body Control. The gears can also be shifted at any time using the silver-coloured aluminium gearshift paddles on the AMG ergonomic sports steering wheel.


High torque requires a reinforced powertrain


The unrivalled 1000 Nm torque requires a systematically reinforced powertrain on the S 65 AMG. In the automatic transmission this includes newly developed clutch plates with a high-quality metallic coating and the modified shift and torque converter logic. Redesigned drive shafts, larger hub carriers as well as strengthened steel spring links supplement these measures.

BuilderBill
12-28-2007, 03:11 PM
Have you guys ever considered any of the MB trannys from any of the 65 models? They have some modded ones running 1000ft/lbs. I know there would be some TCM issues but maybe its a possibilty.

AMG SPEEDSHIFT 5-speed automatic transmission with steering-wheel gearshift paddles


The drive power is transferred to the wheels in the new S 65 AMG via the AMG SPEEDSHIFT five-speed automatic transmission with AMG steering-wheel gearshift paddles and DIRECT SELECT gearshift. The conventional automatic selector lever in the centre console is replaced by a lever on the steering column, which the driver nudges to select the transmission settings 'P', 'N', 'R' and 'D'.


The driver can use the 'S/C/M' mode button in the centre console to select from the 'Sport', 'Comfort' and 'Manual' shift programmes that not only change the transmission characteristics but also the accelerator response and the spring/damper settings of the AMG sports suspension based on Active Body Control. The gears can also be shifted at any time using the silver-coloured aluminium gearshift paddles on the AMG ergonomic sports steering wheel.


High torque requires a reinforced powertrain


The unrivalled 1000 Nm torque requires a systematically reinforced powertrain on the S 65 AMG. In the automatic transmission this includes newly developed clutch plates with a high-quality metallic coating and the modified shift and torque converter logic. Redesigned drive shafts, larger hub carriers as well as strengthened steel spring links supplement these measures.
Chris,
I would love to find a used W5A1000 for a decent price.
It is probable that our bell housing and tail housing would bolt up to the main housing.
I know that the transmission output shafts are different and NON-interchangeable between the W5A580 & the W5A1000.
I have researched the transfer case in another thread....looks pretty stout, time will tell.
I am hoping that someone (Hey FAST!!!) blows up the stock W5A580 so we can see what component broke and correct it.
Right now we are only guessing, but good news is that Eddie at Southern Hotrod is ready to help us on the transmissions.
Bill

SOUTHERNHOTROD
12-28-2007, 03:22 PM
I started doing some research today. Most of the people I need talk to won't be back in the office until next week. I will keep ya'll posted!

Blown-WK
12-28-2007, 04:04 PM
Chris,
I would love to find a used W5A1000 for a decent price.
It is probable that our bell housing and tail housing would bolt up to the main housing.
I know that the transmission output shafts are different and NON-interchangeable between the W5A580 & the W5A1000.
I have researched the transfer case in another thread....looks pretty stout, time will tell.
I am hoping that someone (Hey FAST!!!) blows up the stock W5A580 so we can see what component broke and correct it.
Right now we are only guessing, but good news is that Eddie at Southern Hotrod is ready to help us on the transmissions.
Bill
Yeah that would be awesome. But as you said, only time will tell.

BuilderBill
02-12-2008, 05:43 PM
Have you guys ever considered any of the MB trannys from any of the 65 models? They have some modded ones running 1000ft/lbs.
The unrivalled 1000 Nm torque requires a systematically reinforced powertrain on the S 65 AMG. In the automatic transmission this includes newly developed clutch plates with a high-quality metallic coating and the modified shift and torque converter logic. Redesigned drive shafts, larger hub carriers as well as strengthened steel spring links supplement these measures.
The W5A1000 stuff won't fit in our case.
I tried to stuff the output shaft from the 1000 into the 580 and it did not fit.
Oh, the output shaft was $1,750 and took 4 weeks from Germany.
Working with some great manufactures on some killer stuff for our NAG1 though.;)
Bill

navyavi469
02-12-2008, 05:48 PM
Bill... Hurry Up... lol

Did a high-boost launch last week. Felt blood rushing to the back of my head and the onset of G-lock. New tires provided insane grip... amzed the NAG or XFER case didn't let go, but they held... interesting.

BJB
02-12-2008, 06:22 PM
Bill... Hurry Up... lol

Did a high-boost launch last week. Felt blood rushing to the back of my head and the onset of G-lock. New tires provided insane grip... amazed the NAG or XFER case didn't let go, but they held... interesting.

That's the first good news I heard all day :)

Razorecko
02-12-2008, 06:52 PM
I think these trannies are pretty stout, if you're pushing over 600hp crank to the wheels it'll eventually go. I'd like to see a good transmission oil cooler setup. I think a good B&M setup on the stock trans would be nice for anyone in the future going for a blower or turbo on low boost.

navyavi469
02-12-2008, 06:55 PM
We were pushing over 600 at the WHEELS on this launch.. but it was only one launch..

Razorecko
02-12-2008, 06:58 PM
^ right well the main killer of trannies is heat, -i'm sure doing a launch like that once in a while wont result in anything catastrophic but doing repeated runs , even at lower horsepower will eventually fry it out.

BuilderBill
02-12-2008, 07:55 PM
^ right well the main killer of trannies is heat, -i'm sure doing a launch like that once in a while wont result in anything catastrophic but doing repeated runs , even at lower horsepower will eventually fry it out.
Surprise...I was visiting manufacturing facilities all day today for prototyping something to COOL your fluid!!!!!!!
You are correct, heat kills automatic transmissions.
There are reasons that NO one has come up with much for the NAG1 transmission.
Lets leave that there...no hyping like superchargers or throttle bodies.
Bill

FDNY-L107
02-12-2008, 08:00 PM
Guys - not to overlook the obvious, but you folks pushing high numbers can't be using that crap stock transmission mount. I say - after the fluid change, that stock mount needs to be addressed next. Even at stock power levels. Heck, those motor mounts are not helping either.

veyronSRT8@TTCreations
02-12-2008, 08:06 PM
this thread is nerve racking. lol hopefully as you guys do more runs you will only come back with good news as i am on deck for some increased power on the NAG. Would like to do all the necessary prep work before hand as to avoid unexpected failures. keep us posted B and W. ;)

FDNY-L107
02-12-2008, 08:12 PM
It's my understanding that there is a scheduled Chat session tomorrow evening with some of the SRT engineers. Might be a great time to bring some of these questions into that forum. ??

BuilderBill
02-12-2008, 10:29 PM
Guys - not to overlook the obvious, but you folks pushing high numbers can't be using that crap stock transmission mount. I say - after the fluid change, that stock mount needs to be addressed next. Even at stock power levels. Heck, those motor mounts are not helping either.

Deal for you guys....I have a spare transmission mount & spare engine mounts to donate to whoever wants to research the mounts.
Sorry to Greg at Bwoody when he asked last week, these mounts came with my latest purchase.
Bill

pharmd
02-13-2008, 09:35 AM
Let me rephrase, in our SRT8's you can have either speed or towing capacity, they engineered it for speed, be it be the transmission or the BS reason the engineers gave as to why its only a 3500Ib capacity.

Food for thought in the SS once you replace the TQ converter for better performance the towing capacity is cut nearly in half. And thats FACT.

It all depends on the converter. I chose my converter, going for a lower stall speed (3200), based on the fact that I could retain stock towing capacity. That information is direct from converter manufacturer.

BuilderBill
05-29-2008, 04:54 AM
Did you guys realize that our JGC W5A580 NAG1 has the same number of friction clutches as the W5A900?
That is one more friction clutch per friction pack than even the "normal" W5A580 used in the performance Mercedes, except behind the 12 cylinder versions that use the W5A900? :)

Ok....also upon disassembly of my Renntech W5A580 I now know exactly what they did for $2,500.
They added one additional friction clutch in one friction pack.:mad:

Another tidbit....if your NAG1 is taking loooonger on the 2-3 shift, the friction clutches are frying.
The 3-4 shift will eventually take loooonger to shift, frying another clutch pack.

Bill

Blown7
05-29-2008, 05:29 AM
Hey Bill back from VK???

Ok now so what's being addressed in the new bulletproof NAG's?

Extra clutches in all the packs?


Jeff

Blown-WK
05-29-2008, 08:41 AM
Another tidbit....if your NAG1 is taking loooonger on the 2-3 shift, the friction clutches are frying.
The 3-4 shift will eventually take loooonger to shift, frying another clutch pack.

Bill

I dont like hearing that part. Us nitrous users are getting to that point one step faster:eek:

rainmaker
05-29-2008, 09:42 AM
Did you guys realize that our JGC W5A580 NAG1 has the same number of friction clutches as the W5A900?
That is one more friction clutch per friction pack than even the "normal" W5A580 used in the performance Mercedes, except behind the 12 cylinder versions that use the W5A900? :)

Ok....also upon disassembly of my Renntech W5A580 I now know exactly what they did for $2,500.
They added one additional friction clutch in one friction pack.:mad:

Another tidbit....if your NAG1 is taking loooonger on the 2-3 shift, the friction clutches are frying.
The 3-4 shift will eventually take loooonger to shift, frying another clutch pack.

Bill

Good stuff Bill. So now that we know the clutches and packs are the same for the W5A580 and 900, what remains as differences between the two? (hardware wise anyways...)

Any ETA on the tranny you and Eddie are putting together for sale to the public?

Thanks

BuilderBill
05-29-2008, 09:45 AM
Hey Bill back from VK???

Ok now so what's being addressed in the new bulletproof NAG's?

Extra clutches in all the packs?


Jeff
I will be back Sunday.
Yepper on the clutches...as a start, an additional friction and steel in each applying clutch pack.
Various parts Cryroed & nitrated.
The phase II will have totally new designed clutches.
There will be no frictions & steels....all will be of the newest design...friction on steel.

Thanks for the effort from all on this, including yourself!
I have had emails and calls from "experts" (Wilson, Jersey, AJ, Viper Dan etc.) all over the country on this design.
And a HUGE surprise was Eddie at SHR being a NAG expert from the Mercedes days!

You guys will benefit and have a better NAG1 than Mercedes ever imagined.

The new NAG1's will be sold through Eddie at SHR.
Bill

SlickBrick
05-29-2008, 09:49 AM
Keep up the awesome work guys!

BuilderBill
05-29-2008, 10:14 AM
Good stuff Bill. So now that we know the clutches and packs are the same for the W5A580 and 900, what remains as differences between the two? (hardware wise anyways...)

Any ETA on the tranny you and Eddie are putting together for sale to the public?

Thanks
Rain,
The MAIN difference between both is in the output shaft.
You may remember that Renntech tried to stuff an output shaft in my W5A580 (shaft alone was $1,750) and it would not fit.
Ok....the cases are also slightly different, that is to get the larger output shaft in the 900 series.
If at some time the output shaft becomes a problem, it will also be re-designed, and WILL fit in our case.
Currently it is one on the pieces that is Cryroed and Nitrated.
Testing should be completed in the next 60 days....BJB and Nitrous 426 Chris are EXTREMELY tough on parts!


Oh, we have been contacted by a guy with a "Prostock like" vehicle and may be testing in his ride also. That will tell us what we need to know quickly also.
Bill

navyavi469
05-29-2008, 10:21 AM
I wanna be a "tester" too, lol... so you're expecting the finished product around July sometime??? Any word on price?

BuilderBill
05-29-2008, 10:44 AM
I wanna be a "tester" too, lol... so you're expecting the finished product around July sometime??? Any word on price?
As soon as I get the cost of the production high performance friction/steels it will be finalized.

Thankfully our testers are very understanding of the prototype process.

Being a tester is not inexpensive as I know.
Viper Dan is $1,000 to R&R the trans.

Oh well.....it is a learning experience and our testers know that we are putting the best products and designs in their vehicles.
Bill

veyronSRT8@TTCreations
05-29-2008, 11:08 AM
As soon as I get the cost of the production high performance friction/steels it will be finalized.

Thankfully our testers are very understanding of the prototype process.

Being a tester is not inexpensive as I know.
Viper Dan is $1,000 to R&R the trans.

Oh well.....it is a learning experience and our testers know that we are putting the best products and designs in their vehicles.
Bill

defeinitely keep me in the loop on this one as i may be loking to pick one of these "new improved" NAGs up when they are ready to go...God knows i will be needing one in due time.

BJB
05-30-2008, 07:41 AM
Sure glad to hear about a solution for 4th gear... We burned up another one. On the other hand, 1-2, 2-3 rock!! Good job BB/SHR

BuilderBill
05-30-2008, 09:41 AM
Sure glad to hear about a solution for 4th gear... We burned up another one. On the other hand, 1-2, 2-3 rock!! Good job BB/SHR
Got ya covered!:)
Bill

Blown-WK
05-30-2008, 11:30 AM
Sure glad to hear about a solution for 4th gear... We burned up another one. On the other hand, 1-2, 2-3 rock!! Good job BB/SHR

Damn, you starting a tranny junkyard up there?

MatFab
05-30-2008, 12:09 PM
Damn, you starting a tranny junkyard up there?

just alot of good cores

BJB
05-30-2008, 09:23 PM
Damn, you starting a tranny junkyard up there?

Hopefully we will collect enough to decorate a Christmas tree :D

JerseyBoy@Stage6
05-31-2008, 07:19 AM
Well, you still haven't turned up the boost or hit the spray yet! You might have to get 2 trees this year ;-)

J

CEPCNC
02-03-2009, 04:47 PM
bump for a good cause

BuilderBill
02-03-2009, 05:03 PM
bump for a good cause
WOW...how far we have come.
From breaking all sorts of stuff to BuilderBill being able to offer a one year warranty on a High Torque capacity NAG1 used for racing. Amazing!
Bill

CEPCNC
02-03-2009, 07:05 PM
wish I had something to cure my ills as well...although, I use my WK for something very different and I'm way down the ladder from you guys on engine pressing numbers. darn the luck!

BuilderBill
02-03-2009, 07:47 PM
wish I had something to cure my ills as well...although, I use my WK for something very different and I'm way down the ladder from you guys on engine pressing numbers. darn the luck!
Thing about luck...it does change.;)
Bill

CEPCNC
02-04-2009, 02:04 AM
yeah it does, there are quite a few things about to pop out of the woodwork for us non-SRT8 owners. You folks have your way of using the vehicle and I have mine...

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w200/CEPCNC/JoelsPics007-1.jpg

SOUTHERNHOTROD
02-04-2009, 06:53 AM
yeah it does, there are quite a few things about to pop out of the woodwork for us non-SRT8 owners. You folks have your way of using the vehicle and I have mine...

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w200/CEPCNC/JoelsPics007-1.jpg

What are your issues? I am sure I can fix you up! Give me a call.

That is one bad a$$ JEEP!

CEPCNC
02-04-2009, 05:07 PM
lack of power is my issue my friend...lol. Just like the SRT8 models, I feel that my engine and drivetrain are highly tunable for what I'm going to use it for.
What I'm looking for: MY Transmission is the biggy, I'd like it to be bullet proof-I basically use the same W5A580 trans as the SRT8s (valve body, clutch packs TC, etc.) It likes to give me that annoying tranny over temp message, happened the same evening I took the pic above while romping through the snow. I have an auxillary tranny cooler ready to be put in, so hopefully with this
Diff gears are on the way (looking at 4.11 gearing with rear Arb selectable air lockers.)

Engine performance: PCM/TCM flashes, reloped cams...

Some may bash the 3.7L, but it was the only bare bones package I found...and that's what I really wanted. So far, I've done all the engine, suspension work, and I've got a garage to work in with a lift, I'm just itching to get started.

BTLFED
02-04-2009, 05:10 PM
What are your issues? I am sure I can fix you up! Give me a call.



You are such a



http://kids.christiansunite.com/images/animals/vulture.jpg



Moving in on BBs thread.


Just joking but this is kinda like ambulance chasing :D

SOUTHERNHOTROD
02-04-2009, 06:16 PM
You are such a



http://kids.christiansunite.com/images/animals/vulture.jpg



Moving in on BBs thread.


Just joking but this is kinda like ambulance chasing :D

I did not even look at the begining of the thread. My bad.

CEPCNC
02-04-2009, 06:18 PM
lol....well maybe your luck will improve too then

CEEYA
10-21-2010, 09:07 PM
Our transmission is also the same as used in the 2005 SL65 AMG which has 604HP/738 ft. lbs. & weighs 4,500 lbs.! Stock, this auto turns low 11 sec. 1/4's @ 125 mph+. So the transmission isn't as much a limiting factor as many expect.

Well i have a 426 supercharged making 545awhp running 11.42 1/4 mile and my tranny is slipping and over heats. Need a tranny upgrade asap!Prob a transfer case and tcm aswell!
Might get them figures a little lower

YoungMedic23
10-21-2010, 09:55 PM
Well i have a 426 supercharged making 545awhp running 11.42 1/4 mile and my tranny is slipping and over heats. Need a tranny upgrade asap!Prob a transfer case and tcm aswell!
Might get them figures a little lower

You just bumped a thread almost 2 years old when u could have just shot BuilderBill a message :o