Phenolic Spacers: Urgent call to those with them installed [Archive] - Cherokee SRT8 Forum

: Phenolic Spacers: Urgent call to those with them installed


Ronin
04-07-2007, 12:49 PM
I saw the posts about the GSM phenolic spacers here and picked up on this at the LX forums;

http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=60968

FWIW,

Matty

Mango
04-07-2007, 12:59 PM
http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Ronin
04-07-2007, 01:05 PM
http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

X2, but I'm an FNG and I'd figure I'd just post the facts/experiences of those with direct knowledge, and save my own personal comments/opinions for later...

But I'm tracking with you!

Matty

pjvreede
04-07-2007, 04:07 PM
I saw the posts about the GSM phenolic spacers here and picked up on this at the LX forums;

http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=60968

FWIW,

Matty

Reading through the thread, it seems like most of the spacer issues were resolved by the time Inferno SRT8 got his kit (two gaskets, longer bolts, star washers, and no RTV). Hopefully that takes care of the problem. If not, Anthony will let us know soon enough!! I too cannot understand how a PCV system leak in to the intake manifold can result in a valve spring break.

Cdog
04-07-2007, 04:24 PM
Spacers and leakage have gone hand in hand for YEARS. This is not a case of a faulty product. It's a case of increasing the number of ways for a failure to occur, and then having it occur.

This is why carb spacers are often avoided... gasket issues.

Inferno SRT8
04-07-2007, 04:35 PM
Im closely watching this LX thread, im holding off doing mine for now. One thing I will say, DONT USE SILICONE for the making of any gasket, it will leak I guarantee you that, sooner or later it will leak.

I have 2 oem manifold gaskets and will be using the oem gaskets on both sides. And even thinking the spacers caused a valve spring failure is just nuts.

BuilderBill
04-07-2007, 06:12 PM
Im closely watching this LX thread, im holding off doing mine for now. One thing I will say, DONT USE SILICONE for the making of any gasket, it will leak I guarantee you that, sooner or later it will leak.

I have 2 oem manifold gaskets and will be using the oem gaskets on both sides. And even thinking the spacers caused a valve spring failure is just nuts.
I was watching that post...just nuts or just stupid? Those valve spring failures are well documented!

2 OEM manifold gaskets and you should be set.
Bill

Inferno SRT8
04-07-2007, 06:23 PM
I was watching that post...just nuts or just stupid? Those valve spring failures are well documented!

2 OEM manifold gaskets and you should be set.
Bill


I agree 100%

GotStroke?
04-07-2007, 08:40 PM
My God I would have been banned from that site within the first 48hrs. Need4speed made a lot of sense.

FastSRT8GC
04-07-2007, 09:52 PM
My God I would have been banned from that site within the first 48hrs. Need4speed made a lot of sense.

No kidding. Need4speed was purely stating the truth.

The intake and the materials used to seal it are not intended to hold oil, just air. So if for some reason oil gets into the intake its possible it will seep through the gaskets specially the phenolic material.

Now add a broken spring and a hanging valve and you will have lots of oil being push right back up the intake runner. Right?:confused:

Spacers are good.. just use two factory gaskets w/them.

generalconfusion
04-08-2007, 10:39 AM
My God I would have been banned from that site within the first 48hrs. Need4speed made a lot of sense.

I agree......my jaw was in my lap reading what those bone heads had to say. It is IMPOSSIBLE for a phenolic spacer to have anything to do with a bastardized 426 engine breaking a valve spring. Im sure this is his grandma driven daily driver!! I have to totally agree with Need4speed......it obviously pissed off Mr.Vanilla to the point he threatened him. I would take what those 5.7 guys state a bit tongue in cheek.

I have to agree after installing phenolics on the AMG E55 last night that gaskets should have been used rather than silicone. The kit from EVOsport came with factory gaskets for the upper and lower.

Another note, I spoke to Inferno last week, and told him that during the installation, I noted my manifold and head ports were totally covered in oil.......BEFORE the install.

I have been to the track and driven my vehicle everyday to work....I'll go to the dealer and pick up new gaskets...I'll pull my manifold next weekend and report back.

Inferno SRT8
04-08-2007, 11:05 AM
Here are some pictures of my GSM spacers with OEM manifold gaskets held on by high temp RTV silicone (the red silicone 26B). Im prepping all the spacers for install hopefully next week.

I applied a very light coat to the manifold side of the spacers and put the oem gaskets on and let it cure for a few days. Wiped off all excess silicone. If done correctly this will not leak, if you rush this it will leak. All your doing is adding a spacer for christ sake its not rocket science!

Ill update my progress as I go.

Ronin
04-08-2007, 12:16 PM
I posted this here, like I said, FWIW. I've been on the LX Forum for over a year and half now and picked up a lot of great info. A lot of that info is related directly to GSM...

There was a buzz going on around here about the phenolic spacers and I figured I'd tie the two together. Not a mod I would consider, and I don't know enough to tie the install of them to a valve spring failure (but I'm thinking more likely than not that one has nothing to do with the other, but what do I know?!).

Now I just have to wait for AutoZone to open tomorrow to p/u my new thermostat!

Later,

Matty

GotStroke?
04-08-2007, 01:42 PM
I agree......my jaw was in my lap reading what those bone heads had to say. It is IMPOSSIBLE for a phenolic spacer to have anything to do with a bastardized 426 engine breaking a valve spring. Im sure this is his grandma driven daily driver!! I have to totally agree with Need4speed......it obviously pissed off Mr.Vanilla to the point he threatened him. I would take what those 5.7 guys state a bit tongue in cheek.

I have to agree after installing phenolics on the AMG E55 last night that gaskets should have been used rather than silicone. The kit from EVOsport came with factory gaskets for the upper and lower.

Another note, I spoke to Inferno last week, and told him that during the installation, I noted my manifold and head ports were totally covered in oil.......BEFORE the install.

I have been to the track and driven my vehicle everyday to work....I'll go to the dealer and pick up new gaskets...I'll pull my manifold next weekend and report back.


I don't think I've ever ripped an intake manifold off a car and not seen oil. I can probably guess the answer, but I'll ask anyway, does anyone make an EGR eliminator for us?

generalconfusion
04-09-2007, 12:54 PM
I posted this here, like I said, FWIW. I've been on the LX Forum for over a year and half now and picked up a lot of great info. A lot of that info is related directly to GSM...

There was a buzz going on around here about the phenolic spacers and I figured I'd tie the two together. Not a mod I would consider, and I don't know enough to tie the install of them to a valve spring failure (but I'm thinking more likely than not that one has nothing to do with the other, but what do I know?!).

Matty

So you posted this to "chicken little" us. What does an LX body with a 5.7 configuration and plastic manifold have any thing to do with the Jeep or the 6.1? I have to agree with your statement whole heartedly 100%......you "dont know enough".

Ronin
04-09-2007, 02:49 PM
So you posted this to "chicken little" us. What does an LX body with a 5.7 configuration and plastic manifold have any thing to do with the Jeep or the 6.1? I have to agree with your statement whole heartedly 100%......you "dont know enough".

Thanks for the warm welcome! I won't assume you read the LX Forum posts, but since you mention it, it rates for mentioning here on the Jeep SRT forum because (1) the LX platform offers SRTs too you know, with 6.1s even! (2) of those LX SRTs with 6.1s, statistically speaking, the chances of those SRT owners having purchased or installed them (the spacers) is probably higher than it would be here, just from a sheer ownership numbers standpoint (3) I own a 5.7 Hemi Magnum R/T, and I'm not so sure I'd share the philosophy of "Well, that's only in the case of those 5.7s, not us 6.1 types", (4) it's a GSM product, and the LX Forum has a tremendous amount of experience with their other product offerings, which may bear into the consideration of an educated consumer here on this board considering the purchase of the spacers of anything else that GSM offers for their Jeep, non LX platform, non 5.7 plastic manifold configuration 6.1...

(And with my best possible Ace Ventura impression) But I'm sure you already knew all of that...that's what turns me on so much about your response to my post, it's your attention to detail...

ALL RIGHTY THEN!

Have a nice day :D

Matty

Mango
04-09-2007, 02:57 PM
Oh snap!


....

BuilderBill
04-09-2007, 03:31 PM
Have a nice day :D

Matty
Welcome Matty! Yes most of us check the other boards. I think you caught the General on a tough day :D he is a huge contributer to the forums.
Bill

Ronin
04-09-2007, 03:49 PM
Welcome Matty! Yes most of us check the other boards. I think you caught the General on a tough day :D he is a huge contributer to the forums.
Bill

Bill,

Maybe, but then again that's the problem with pounding away on a keyboard in cyberspace, so much is left to interpretation; kidding, joshing, sarcasm, disrespect, etc. My wife has a 4 year B.A. degree in Communication and the only thing I've ever seen her get out of it is her witty retort, "Communication is 10% verbal, 90% non-verbal (body language, etc.)" That leaves a lot to interpretation. I just figured I'd respond light heartedly in kind, with some stone cold facts just to put things in perspective and address the concerns raised by the General...

I'm only a Captain after all!

Drive safe,

Matty

pjvreede
04-09-2007, 04:18 PM
Bill,

Maybe, but then again that's the problem with pounding away on a keyboard in cyberspace, so much is left to interpretation; kidding, joshing, sarcasm, disrespect, etc. My wife has a 4 year B.A. degree in Communication and the only thing I've ever seen her get out of it is her witty retort, "Communication is 10% verbal, 90% non-verbal (body language, etc.)" That leaves a lot to interpretation. I just figured I'd respond light heartedly in kind, with some stone cold facts just to put things in perspective and address the concerns raised by the General...

I'm only a Captain after all!

Drive safe,

Matty

Read enough posts on these forums, and you'll get to know the "jest" of these "non-verbal" statements contained within the written statement. It's just diifferent personalities interacting in their own way. You have to admit, there was some really stupid statements made on that particular thread, which "need4speed" tried to put in to perspective

Ronin
04-09-2007, 04:34 PM
Read enough posts on these forums, and you'll get to know the "jest" of these "non-verbal" statements contained within the written statement. It's just different personalities interacting in their own way. You have to admit, there was some really stupid statements made on that particular thread, which "need4speed" tried to put in to perspective

need4speed tried to put it in perspective, but what some people here may or may not realize, about the LX Forum in particular, is the tremendous amount of GSM related "baggage" there. I saw the spacer post there, some here, put 2 + 2 together, eventually got 4, and figured, no pun intended, (at least yet, I'll wait for some GSM S/C installs) that where there's smoke there's fire.

As far as the posts here are concerned, it's kinda like defending yourself against sexual harassment, "when I said that, I meant it as a compliment..." Whatever. How's that saying go about fighting on the internet and winning at the Special Olympics?

I'm gonna watch "The Ringer" now...

Johnny Knoxville and I have a lot in common...

Later,

Matty

GSM
04-09-2007, 04:42 PM
Reading through the thread, it seems like most of the spacer issues were resolved by the time Inferno SRT8 got his kit (two gaskets, longer bolts, star washers, and no RTV). Hopefully that takes care of the problem. If not, Anthony will let us know soon enough!! I too cannot understand how a PCV system leak in to the intake manifold can result in a valve spring break.



Update on the 6.1 spacers,

Changes

To stop any install errors we are now including a second set of factory intake gaskets and deleting the need for rtv silicone, this will make the install a no brainer period.

We have also been including a long set of bolts and washers in the kits

Scott
GS Motorsports
562.777.1075

timster
04-09-2007, 06:29 PM
Update on the 6.1 spacers,

Changes

To stop any install errors we are now including a second set of factory intake gaskets and deleting the need for rtv silicone, this will make the install a no brainer period.

We have also been including a long set of bolts and washers in the kits

Scott
GS Motorsports
562.777.1075


thats great for anyone who purchases the spacers now, but what about the suckers that bought the spacers before the longer bolts and extra gaskets were added?

pjvreede
04-09-2007, 06:46 PM
need4speed tried to put it in perspective, but what some people here may or may not realize, about the LX Forum in particular, is the tremendous amount of GSM related "baggage" there. I saw the spacer post there, some here, put 2 + 2 together, eventually got 4, and figured, no pun intended, (at least yet, I'll wait for some GSM S/C installs) that where there's smoke there's fire.

As far as the posts here are concerned, it's kinda like defending yourself against sexual harassment, "when I said that, I meant it as a compliment..." Whatever. How's that saying go about fighting on the internet and winning at the Special Olympics?

I'm gonna watch "The Ringer" now...

Johnny Knoxville and I have a lot in common...

Later,

Matty

Most everyone on this forum understands the potential problems with using GSM products(some good, some not so good). This is not about you; its about the GSM phenolic spacers and what peoples' experience has been with using them. Just look at GSM's post between yours and mine. Damage control, but NOT because it resulted in a broken valve spring. Funny thing is that if you search the forum, you will see that members of this forum questioned the logic of not having gaskets on BOTH sides of the phenolic spacer from the moment the phenolic spacer's were announced by GSM!

Ronin
04-09-2007, 07:18 PM
Most everyone on this forum understands the potential problems with using GSM products(some good, some not so good). This is not about you; its about the GSM phenolic spacers and what peoples' experience has been with using them. Just look at GSM's post between yours and mine. Damage control, but NOT because it resulted in a broken valve spring. Funny thing is that if you search the forum, you will see that members of this forum questioned the logic of not having gaskets on BOTH sides of the phenolic spacer from the moment the phenolic spacer's were announced by GSM!

Huh? You're right it's not about me; but I have no idea why you would say that considering that I'm the one that posted the link to the LX Forum's to begin with??? Some good, some not so good...and this is "damage control"?! Timster wants to know what "about the suckers that bought the spacers before the longer bolts and extra gaskets were added?". If that's all anyone ends up on this forum out at the cost of doing business with GSM, they should consider themselves unbelievably fortunate. Not like the guys on the 300C Forum, Charger Forum, and LX Forum who had the GSM S/C kit grenade their engines due to their poor design, band aid tuning and refusal to acknowledge any responsibility, especially financially, for it...

Wait a minute, maybe I do know something after all...

Broken valve springs? My Jeep SRT may be new to me, but that's relatively old news on the LX forums; I didn't think, and previously commented to that effect, that the valve spring failure mentioned on the LX Forum was attributable to the GSM spacers, but the other issues that have arisen from their installation, well...

Remember the LX platform (and those poor Dodge Dakota bastards) have quite a head start on their "experience" with GSM, people here can either get the heads up and learn from that experience, or, as previously suggested, keep their head firmly in the sand, with their hands over the ears, screaming "na-na-na" so they can't hear train coming. Time to put the GSM pom-poms away, they can go in the closet right next to the Hennessey varsity jacket.

I hate to tell anyone "I told you so"; but when someone jumps my case and is being disrespectful like I don't know what I'm talking about, I got nothing for them...

Once again, keeping in mind the SEARCH feature found here and on all the other forums, FWIW...

That's all I got,

TTFN,

Matty

FastSRT8GC
04-09-2007, 08:32 PM
I will chime in quickly. I personally would have taken offense to Generals coments also. I have been here long enough like you Bill to notice it was out of character. But none the less Ronin came here with warnings to HELP regardless of his vast or not so vast knowledge of the 6.1.

Thanks for the FYI RONIN seems like GSM noticed these problems. I may order mine now;)

BTW RONIN one bad a$$ movie.

generalconfusion
04-09-2007, 11:15 PM
Huh? You're right it's not about me; but I have no idea why you would say that considering that I'm the one that posted the link to the LX Forum's to begin with??? Some good, some not so good...and this is "damage control"?! Timster wants to know what "about the suckers that bought the spacers before the longer bolts and extra gaskets were added?". If that's all anyone ends up on this forum out at the cost of doing business with GSM, they should consider themselves unbelievably fortunate. Not like the guys on the 300C Forum, Charger Forum, and LX Forum who had the GSM S/C kit grenade their engines due to their poor design, band aid tuning and refusal to acknowledge any responsibility, especially financially, for it...

Wait a minute, maybe I do know something after all...

Broken valve springs? My Jeep SRT may be new to me, but that's relatively old news on the LX forums; I didn't think, and previously commented to that effect, that the valve spring failure mentioned on the LX Forum was attributable to the GSM spacers, but the other issues that have arisen from their installation, well...

Remember the LX platform (and those poor Dodge Dakota bastards) have quite a head start on their "experience" with GSM, people here can either get the heads up and learn from that experience, or, as previously suggested, keep their head firmly in the sand, with their hands over the ears, screaming "na-na-na" so they can't hear train coming. Time to put the GSM pom-poms away, they can go in the closet right next to the Hennessey varsity jacket.

I hate to tell anyone "I told you so"; but when someone jumps my case and is being disrespectful like I don't know what I'm talking about, I got nothing for them...

Once again, keeping in mind the SEARCH feature found here and on all the other forums, FWIW...

That's all I got,

TTFN,

Matty

I originally just quoted and agreed with you!!! You should not take offense to one quoting your own written statement/quote. BTW there are substantial differences between the LX and Jeep platforms. They both do not behave the same to like engine modifications. Maybe the SEARCH feature is something I might suggest you engage in at this forum and the other owners club forum, for actual tests conducted last year, and you will in fact find those differences. You will in fact find some of those tests by myself and others, mentioned and discussed by LX owners on the LX forum.

Additionally I do not have GSM pom poms in my house or ******..... personally I have tested some of their products..as well as Mopars and a few others...modified some of them.....gave some of them away.....some are hanging in the ******....but for the most part, only kept those that I felt actually contributed to the vehicles performance. I have found that the LX forums have some what "peaked" and other than past bad experience do not really have much to help the Jeep Cherokee owners. I was very much aware of the entire GSM/Vortech experience and in fact the design caused me to hesitate purchasing it until it was on the street a while. I drove two.......actually last July and was impressed.......but not having a true way to control the primary ECU especially on a high compression N/A designed motor.......your asking for trouble and the inexperienced purchaser......well......graduates to the school of experience;"learning from ones mistakes"........that is true experience.

In the mean time, the Phenolic Spacer (wood/aluminum) is a damn good idea that has been around for at least 30 years and back in the day it served as an isolator between the hot manifold and the notorious vapor locking Holley.......it also became an effective tuning device for those of us that actually "fine" tuned race engines and served as a clearance tool. To state that the phenolic spacer is a direct cause or to elude (as they did) that has caused internal engine damage is insulting to the reader.....unless it was another GSM bash. When my Jeep manifold came off, the mating surfaces had oil........I found this weekend some oil around the manifold and surge tanks of my supercharged E55, while adding phenolic spacers. The oil is coming from the engines own crankcase evaporative system that the intake is directly ingesting at the PCV valve and oil fill tube at the front of the intake. You will always see this on street vehicles with emission controls......in my opinion, another reason is due to the lighter engine oils as well, therefore causing a bit more crankcase gasses and blow-by. It also seems to me that there are casting inconsistencies in our mass produced, foreign made powerplants.

In closing, assuming this is purely a discussion on heat transfer and not a GSM bash, you are only cheating yourself discounting this modification, whether or not you buy it from GSM or anyone else. You owe it to yourself to maybe "google" phenolic spacer and see that from Ford....Chevy to Nissan, non conductive spacers to isolate the heat transfer to the manifold via the heads are standard fare in the high performance world.

Best Regards.

Ronin
04-10-2007, 05:30 AM
I originally just quoted and agreed with you!!! You should not take offense to one quoting your own written statement/quote. BTW there are substantial differences between the LX and Jeep platforms. They both do not behave the same to like engine modifications. Maybe the SEARCH feature is something I might suggest you engage in at this forum and the other owners club forum, for actual tests conducted last year, and you will in fact find those differences. You will in fact find some of those tests by myself and others, mentioned and discussed by LX owners on the LX forum.

Additionally I do not have GSM pom poms in my house or ******..... personally I have tested some of their products..as well as Mopars and a few others...modified some of them.....gave some of them away.....some are hanging in the ******....but for the most part, only kept those that I felt actually contributed to the vehicles performance. I have found that the LX forums have some what "peaked" and other than past bad experience do not really have much to help the Jeep Cherokee owners. I was very much aware of the entire GSM/Vortech experience and in fact the design caused me to hesitate purchasing it until it was on the street a while. I drove two.......actually last July and was impressed.......but not having a true way to control the primary ECU especially on a high compression N/A designed motor.......your asking for trouble and the inexperienced purchaser......well......graduates to the school of experience;"learning from ones mistakes"........that is true experience.

In the mean time, the Phenolic Spacer (wood/aluminum) is a damn good idea that has been around for at least 30 years and back in the day it served as an isolator between the hot manifold and the notorious vapor locking Holley.......it also became an effective tuning device for those of us that actually "fine" tuned race engines and served as a clearance tool. To state that the phenolic spacer is a direct cause or to elude (as they did) that has caused internal engine damage is insulting to the reader.....unless it was another GSM bash. When my Jeep manifold came off, the mating surfaces had oil........I found this weekend some oil around the manifold and surge tanks of my supercharged E55, while adding phenolic spacers. The oil is coming from the engines own crankcase evaporative system that the intake is directly ingesting at the PCV valve and oil fill tube at the front of the intake. You will always see this on street vehicles with emission controls......in my opinion, another reason is due to the lighter engine oils as well, therefore causing a bit more crankcase gasses and blow-by. It also seems to me that there are casting inconsistencies in our mass produced, foreign made powerplants.

In closing, assuming this is purely a discussion on heat transfer and not a GSM bash, you are only cheating yourself discounting this modification, whether or not you buy it from GSM or anyone else. You owe it to yourself to maybe "google" phenolic spacer and see that from Ford....Chevy to Nissan, non conductive spacers to isolate the heat transfer to the manifold via the heads are standard fare in the high performance world.

Best Regards.

Why is the term "thread crapping" ringing a bell so loudly in my ears?

Apology accepted!

Have a great day!!!

And now, we return you to your regularly scheduled program...

Ta,

Matty

Ronin
04-10-2007, 05:37 AM
I will chime in quickly. I personally would have taken offense to Generals coments also. I have been here long enough like you Bill to notice it was out of character. But none the less Ronin came here with warnings to HELP regardless of his vast or not so vast knowledge of the 6.1.

Thanks for the FYI RONIN seems like GSM noticed these problems. I may order mine now;)

BTW RONIN one bad a$$ movie.

You're the second guy to mention that the General's comments were out of character, but given his most recent post...

Whatever man...whatever...

Ronin is a b*tchin' movie, and a great advertisement for Audi!

As explained in the movie, Ronin is a term used to refer to masterless samuri, and not exactly a respectful reference. It also translates into a college student whose failed their college entrance exams.

I didn't pick the handle, it was "given" to me, and I'm still trying to figure out why (although I do have a pretty good idea ;) !

Later,

Matty

GRNENVY
04-10-2007, 06:25 AM
Hmm is there a problem with the spacers and gaskets or could this be a lack of comman sense and that half the people doing the install are pencil pushers. :rolleyes:

GRNENVY
04-10-2007, 06:26 AM
Sounds like an install problem to me.

Ronin
04-10-2007, 07:47 AM
Sounds like an install problem to me.

Yeah, and GSM did the install on at least one of them...

But it was a 5.7, so that doesn't bear on the 6.1s at all, now does it???

Things that make you go hmmm...

Later,

Matty

GSM
04-10-2007, 09:20 AM
thats great for anyone who purchases the spacers now, but what about the suckers that bought the spacers before the longer bolts and extra gaskets were added?


First of all,


On the 6.1

We always will upgrade products.we have been shipping the longer bolts for some time and Chrysler had the intake gaskets on restriction early on and we could not offer them.

as I posted on several boards we will provide the upgrade for "FREE" to the customers that bought one of the early sets, shipping charges will apply

Give Ryan a call in sales and we will take care of it

On the 5.7's which we have only made a dozen sets, the people that carefully installed them like the results.

We are working on a design change to that entire part because of the fact there is no factory gasket, just some 0-rings and it is tricky to get the spacers correctly installed.



Scott
GS Motorsports
562.777.1075

Ronin
04-10-2007, 06:00 PM
Generally speaking, so as not add to any confusion here, allow me to clarify, reiterate and/or reemphasize (or your choice of any re- prefix appropriate word)...

The results of the phenolic spacers on the 6.1s at the track and on the dyno is not and never has been the issue here; the issue that I brought to everyone's attention by way of my link to the LX Forum post was INSTALLATION related, and the failures or issues experienced as a result of the installation, even in the case of at least one by the manufacturer, GSM, themselves...

So whether or not the LX forum experiences with phenolic spacers on their 6.1s or those dreadful, lowly 5.7s (like the one found in my Magnum R/T) are applicable to the WJ 6.1 SRT types (well, I guess like me too) here, is respectfully submitted for your review FWIW and thoughtful and likewise respectful comment. I don't need to be lectured about the profound differences between the LX and WJ 6.1s (?!) in one breath and then be told to research, (Goggle as the search engine of choice evidently, I hope Mozilla is OK to use as my browser) about the vastly successful results with phenolic spacers with engines that definitely have a whole lot less in common with the 5.7, the 6.1, and the 6.0 PowerStroke in my truck for that matter...

Not to mention (but hey, I guess I am) that said manufacturer, GSM, has a less than completely stellar customer service and product performance history. That is extremely well documented, regardless of your browser, search engine, or DCX/Dodge-Chrysler car/truck forum you decide to peruse just to educate yourself a little more in the process. I certainly wouldn't discount the experiences of a fellow gearhead (again, insert the word of your choice here is mine isn't working for you) just because they had a different opinion or experience than I did, and I certainly wouldn't insult them, refer to their car as a trailer queen, grandma-mobile or likewise...

That's what some of those other forums seem to be all about, not here in my opinion and certainly not me.

Now I'm actually feeling a little redeemed myself, funny how that worked.

Mod safe, do what works for you and makes you happy, and take it wayyy easy...

Later,

Matty