Gsm Phenolic Spacer Works!!!!!! [Archive] - Cherokee SRT8 Forum

: Gsm Phenolic Spacer Works!!!!!!


generalconfusion
03-30-2007, 01:44 AM
I have quite a few modifications as one can see. I run the truck mostly at Irwindale which is only an 1/8 mile but that is all we have in Southern Cal. My Jeep typically runs 60's of 2.059-1.94........330's of 5.66 to 5.55......1/8 of 8.671 to 8.544.....mph 80.9 to 82.4. I typically run at night when temp get in the 60's and had a few 58's.

GSM installed the phenolic spacers yesterday and i was pretty skeptical. Today I went to Irwindale early and made my first pass at 5:13pm and the temp was 72 and sunny. My first pass was a 60' of 1.90....330 of 5.50...1/8 of 8.49...quite an improvement.....I immediately backed it up with a 1.91 / 5.47 / 8.45@82.76. :eek: NO WAY...from a spacer!!

For the final run I removed the factory reflashed TCM and reinstalled the GSM TCM.......the next run was 60'-1.87.....330-5.45......8.44@ 82.39.....the temp as it got later stayed at 70 degrees.

In summary, the freakiest, cheapest mod I have ever made resulted in quite a performance improvement. A new member from the OC site dropped by there (Hemi@last) and witnessed the improvement. In the box I could light up all four corners...i swear! He is my witness.

The GSM tranny box is also a keeper over the factory reflash. I can manually upshift and the shifts are way better than stock. The converter flashes higher and the shifts are right now. The tranny shifts at 6100-6200 vs 5800rpm and drops back to 4800rpm rather than the 4500rpm previously and bangs right up to 61-6200 and again shifts like clock work!! These TCM's are not being flashed in country and my E55 TCM is going to them as soon as I pull it out!

Again you cant lose with the Phenolic Spacers as far as bang for the dollar.
Dyno next Wednesday at XS Engineering where I did the back to back stock vs mopar exhaust. Although now I'll see what the Kooks and Phenolic Spacer do for me.

Mango
03-30-2007, 06:06 AM
You're Sgt. Stanko right?

BuilderBill
03-30-2007, 06:29 AM
GSM installed the phenolic spacers yesterday and i was pretty skeptical. Today I went to Irwindale early and made my first pass at 5:13pm and the temp was 72 and sunny. My first pass was a 60' of 1.90....330 of 5.50...1/8 of 8.49...quite an improvement.....I immediately backed it up with a 1.91 / 5.47 / 8.45@82.76. :eek: NO WAY...from a spacer!! Hmmm, in over 100 runs, trying the spacer back to back I saw NO improvement other than a drastic reduction in the exterior intake temperature.


For the final run I removed the factory reflashed TCM and reinstalled the GSM TCM.......the next run was 60'-1.87.....330-5.45......8.44@ 82.39.....the temp as it got later stayed at 70 degrees. Can GSM reflash our VIN number on the '07 TCM so we can do a back to back swap like this? I may be interested in trying, even though I am skeptical.
Bill

FastSRT8GC
03-30-2007, 08:30 AM
After going to the track yesterday I can really see how these would make a difference. There is soooooo much heat transfer to the upper intake runners. We ran water over it just to cool it down. The motor is very prone to heat soak and adding these spacers that will stop the transfer or slow it down will help.

BUT.... By how much it a good question. We need a CF or Plastic Intake!!!

generalconfusion
03-30-2007, 09:11 AM
You're Sgt. Stanko right?

How did you figure it out?

generalconfusion
03-30-2007, 09:21 AM
Hmmm, in over 100 runs, trying the spacer back to back I saw NO improvement other than a drastic reduction in the exterior intake temperature.

Can GSM reflash our VIN number on the '07 TCM so we can do a back to back swap like this? I may be interested in trying, even though I am skeptical.
Bill

This is the only change to the vehicle since two weeks ago when i ran there and several members from the OC were there. My times have been pretty consistent at Irwindale.........unless the track just sunk 200':D

There is NO doubt the manifold runs much cooler. Your truck did not react any different to the stall converter either.....mine did. The TCM now allows me to spin all four......it did it before but much more now.

As far as the flash......I had the original factory 06 flash last year and the vehicle did not experience the severe hesitation many others had...it did ocassionally hit the rev limiter and lay over....the recent factory TSB flash was MUCH better but you could no longer manual shift.....which I kind of liked. This GSM flash is like the factory 06 flash EXCEPT......I hit over 6000rpm (rather than 5800)at each shift and each shift is much firmer than either factory flashes. I have my factory TCM if i want to go back......but i dont think that is going to happen.

rainmaker
03-30-2007, 09:49 AM
I have quite a few modifications as one can see. I run the truck mostly at Irwindale which is only an 1/8 mile but that is all we have in Southern Cal. My Jeep typically runs 60's of 2.059-1.94........330's of 5.66 to 5.55......1/8 of 8.671 to 8.544.....mph 80.9 to 82.4. I typically run at night when temp get in the 60's and had a few 58's.

GSM installed the phenolic spacers yesterday and i was pretty skeptical. Today I went to Irwindale early and made my first pass at 5:13pm and the temp was 72 and sunny. My first pass was a 60' of 1.90....330 of 5.50...1/8 of 8.49...quite an improvement.....I immediately backed it up with a 1.91 / 5.47 / 8.45@82.76. :eek: NO WAY...from a spacer!!


Hey General,

Thanks for posting your results. I've always followed your posts with interest and this one is no different. Typically you're pretty objective in your results, but this one seems a tad off. What I'm reading here is your 60' got better, which to me sounds like better track prep and not more HP. MPH is typically an indicator of more power, but from these results that hasn't changed much.

For me the spacer doesn't work as advertised (30 whp according to GSM), and is a gimmick. I've not seen anyone else post with any results, so I guess the jury is still out. If anything the marketing department at GSM (ha) has to be thrilled because such a controversial mod will only advertise the company more and generate more business...

To each their own.

BuilderBill
03-30-2007, 09:51 AM
This is the only change to the vehicle since two weeks ago when i ran there and several members from the OC were there. My times have been pretty consistent at Irwindale.........unless the track just sunk 200':D Watch the sinking tracks! LOL.

The TCM now allows me to spin all four......it did it before but much more now. All four?????? Every other JGC spins diagonally, one front and one rear. Now I 'm confused General. I don't understand how a new TCM will now spin all four. If the '07 GSM TCM will do that, I would be willing to pay GSM TWICE the list price of the '07 TCM. It would save a ton of work with our differentials that we are trying to find some type of locking mechanism so that ALL four would have traction.
Confused Bill

generalconfusion
03-30-2007, 11:35 AM
Watch the sinking tracks! LOL.

All four?????? Every other JGC spins diagonally, one front and one rear. Now I 'm confused General. I don't understand how a new TCM will now spin all four. If the '07 GSM TCM will do that, I would be willing to pay GSM TWICE the list price of the '07 TCM. It would save a ton of work with our differentials that we are trying to find some type of locking mechanism so that ALL four would have traction.
Confused Bill

I checked.....its still at 575'!

Bill....I dont have to BS anybody.....if a product doesnt work I'll be the first to tell you.... however, I have the rubber stuck on all four sides to prove it!
You dont have to buy the TCM....I dont get a commision nor with my income do i need one. The TCM "according to GSM"......now dont flame the messenger!!!! Tells the torque converter to NOT lock up now I cant verify physically if it does or doesnt but the fact that I can torque spin the wheels with ease tells me something is allowing more power to the wheels.

timster
03-30-2007, 11:39 AM
Hey General,


For me the spacer doesn't work as advertised (30 whp according to GSM), and is a gimmick. I've not seen anyone else post with any results, so I guess the jury is still out. If anything the marketing department at GSM (ha) has to be thrilled because such a controversial mod will only advertise the company more and generate more business...

To each their own.

The tests that GSM did on the dyno were done at operating temps. In other words they let the engine idle until it reached 200 + degrees, and then they did the dyno runs. Under these conditions, I do think the spacer makes a difference.

As for why Bill didn't see any difference, I think it may have to do with the fact that he has the fan and themostat mods, which kept the 6.1 from heat soaking.. I bet if he didn't have the two above mentioned mods, the spacer would have made a difference, especially on runs in which the engine was up to operating temps.

JMO

generalconfusion
03-30-2007, 12:10 PM
Bill
My truck goes to the dyno next Wednesday. At that point I'll know the difference of the headers and spacer.

Like I stated.....two weeks ago and previously i have not run these times at Irwindale.

HoustonSRT-8
03-30-2007, 12:13 PM
So the difference in the two times out also had a header install in between?

rainmaker
03-30-2007, 12:13 PM
Bill
My truck goes to the dyno next Wednesday. At that point I'll know the difference of the headers and spacer.

Like I stated.....two weeks ago and previously i have not run these times at Irwindale.


Hey GC,

Think you'll be able to do a true before and after test of just the spacer?

generalconfusion
03-30-2007, 12:19 PM
So the difference in the two times out also had a header install in between?

NO...the headers have been on since last year. The last time it was at XS for dyno check was last year....September.....when I tested the stock exhaust against the Corsa...The headers went on in like October last year...they moved and now have their 4 wheel dyno back up. The headers made about a 1/10th difference.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j66/sgtstanko/aguilarcorsa1.jpg

BuilderBill
03-30-2007, 12:34 PM
The tests that GSM did on the dyno were done at operating temps. In other words they let the engine idle until it reached 200 + degrees, and then they did the dyno runs. Under these conditions, I do think the spacer makes a difference.

As for why Bill didn't see any difference, I think it may have to do with the fact that he has the fan and themostat mods, which kept the 6.1 from heat soaking.. I bet if he didn't have the two above mentioned mods, the spacer would have made a difference, especially on runs in which the engine was up to operating temps.

JMO
Yes with my mods ol' Hemi does not see heat soak I believe. However, I needed to wait 40 minutes to take off the existing intake manifold because it was too hot to handle!
Fact:
The spacers did NOT help my ET or MPH to the second decimal place.
On the new 426 motor, I WILL ABSOLUTELY install the spaces as it does keep the intake cooler. I will bitc* about GSM where it think it is necessary (the fan or traction mods), this is not one of those places.Bill

generalconfusion
03-30-2007, 12:45 PM
[QUOTE=rainmaker]Hey General,

Thanks for posting your results. I've always followed your posts with interest and this one is no different. Typically you're pretty objective in your results, but this one seems a tad off. What I'm reading here is your 60' got better, which to me sounds like better track prep and not more HP. MPH is typically an indicator of more power, but from these results that hasn't changed much.
QUOTE]


Hey Rainmaker....I dont want my post to sound giddy and full of sh*t, but I guess I might have sounded excited. Your right, usually I dont get that way, the fact remains for all the money (6K) I have spent, nothing has really improved the performance......to see a real return on investment or performance gain compared to the Chevy or Ford boys. I like some others, have bragging rights for all the damn parts and money but the results have been dismall at best. I recently was selling the truck and one of the reason was frustration on the money spent vs results. Compared to my E55 modding the Jeep is like pissing in the wind.

I'am excited that the times improved and this was the only change made. I agree with you the MPH is about the same but the times are much better than my previous 6 visits to this track. It could have been a fluke but the times were consistent runs.....five of them...the weather was hotter than all the previous visits...so lets see what happens next week.

Steve

gculver
03-30-2007, 01:05 PM
Hey GC,

Think you'll be able to do a true before and after test of just the spacer?


Yes, I could, but what's the point now, since I have a ceramic coated intake.The spacers will reduce heat transfer from heads to intake, the true test will come with ambient temps around 100* and high engine bay temps. Even with spacers it's still a huge chunk of aluminum setting on top the engine sucking up surrounding heat. Thats why I went with the coatings and composite gaskets from PPP. For the money, it's a good mod, but to say anything about HP & TQ increases, I just don't know. Remember, we are waiting on spacer dyno's from GSM, because the first dyno's, well, they just weren't right(polite). From design, with the dogleg it creates, I can see losing power above 4500-5000 RPM. If in the future someone sends me a set of spacers for FREE, I would be happy to test them on my spare intake,in my spare time,(few & far between). BTW, on the LX forum, there is some similar testing going on now, ceramic against spacers, against stock. Like I said earlier,The true test will come in the heat of summer, IMO

rainmaker
03-30-2007, 01:08 PM
Yes, I could, but what's the point now, since I have a ceramic coated intake.The spacers will reduce heat transfer from heads to intake, the true test will come with ambient temps around 100* and high engine bay temps. Even with spacers it's still a huge chunk of aluminum setting on top the engine sucking up surrounding heat. Thats why I went with the coatings and composite gaskets from PPP. For the money, it's a good mod, but to say anything about HP & TQ increases, I just don't know. Remember, we are waiting on spacer dyno's from GSM, because the first dyno's, well, they just weren't right(polite). From design, with the dogleg it creates, I can see losing power above 4500-5000 RPM. If in the future someone sends me a set of spacers for FREE, I would be happy to test them on my spare intake,in my spare time,(few & far between). BTW, on the LX forum, there is some similar testing going on now, ceramic against spacers, against stock. Like I said earlier,The true test will come in the heat of summer, IMO

Err. Sorry I meant the other GC... General Confusion. But I agree with you, I think coatings the way to go.

gculver
03-30-2007, 01:11 PM
Err. Sorry I meant the other GC... General Confusion. But I agree with you, I think coatings the way to go.


It's cool, I have been sitting on the sidlines all morning.!!! Put me in coach!!:D

BuilderBill
03-30-2007, 01:16 PM
It's cool, I have been sitting on the sidlines all morning.!!! Put me in coach!!:D
GC...along the sidelines??
Hop in and help, I'm alone again in my corner, waiting for GSM to call!!!
Bill

gculver
03-30-2007, 01:33 PM
GC...along the sidelines??
Hop in and help, I'm alone again in my corner, waiting for GSM to call!!!
Bill

When u get em! Tell them were watin on those new dyno's!!! I bet your askin about that TCM stage II ??? I asked yesterday!!!

BuilderBill
03-30-2007, 02:23 PM
When u get em! Tell them were watin on those new dyno's!!! I bet your askin about that TCM stage II ??? I asked yesterday!!!
1st class outfit that GSM LOL! Still no phone call. Hey G.Confusion, please use your influence with GSM..I have credit card in hand ready for an '07 TCM & an "A" pillar w/ gauge. If Southern Hotrod had this stuff it would already be in the mail to me. What a difference in our vendors! Oh well, most of them are part-timers anyway any don't care one way or another.

Bill

generalconfusion
03-30-2007, 04:01 PM
1st class outfit that GSM LOL! Still no phone call. Hey G.Confusion, please use your influence with GSM..I have credit card in hand ready for an '07 TCM & an "A" pillar w/ gauge. If Southern Hotrod had this stuff it would already be in the mail to me. What a difference in our vendors! Oh well, most of them are part-timers anyway any don't care one way or another.

Bill

Done.......dont say I never did you a favor:D The difference is GSM is a fabricator and shop......Southern Hotrod (no disrespect) purchases from those vendor/fabricators.....like B&G...Corsa....DUB...Volant.....GSM, etc..etc....then sells them.

As a matter of fact that reminds me to call him for a Volant.....thanks!

BuilderBill
03-30-2007, 04:06 PM
Done.......dont say I never did you a favor:D The difference is GSM is a fabricator and shop......Southern Hotrod (no disrespect) purchases from those vendor/fabricators.....like B&G...Corsa....DUB...Volant..etc..etc....then sells them.
Thanks...I am waiting by the pool, phone and glass of wine next to me. After all, it is now co**tail hour in Charlotte!http://www.cherokeesrt8.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif
Bill

gculver
03-30-2007, 04:14 PM
Thanks...I am waiting by the pool, phone and glass of wine next to me. After all, it is now co**tail hour in Charlotte!http://www.cherokeesrt8.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif
Bill

Yep! BuilderBill The Bum!!! Just like I thought!! LOL!!!:D

BuilderBill
03-30-2007, 04:18 PM
Yep! BuilderBill The Bum!!! Just like I thought!! LOL!!!:D
Heyhey....I work really fast and get my job done on time. Ha, actually, have a great Operations Manager and crew that look out for my back.

GSM called and they are about 4-6 weeks from having a TCM for the '07's. Oh well, the plan WILL come together this summer hopefully!

Back to some vino & relaxing!
Bill

GSM
03-30-2007, 04:19 PM
To clear up any confusion,



The Phenolic spacers are in stock.


I have attached a dyno to clarify the mod.


We did make hp and to on every car we installed them on and we are not claiming any wild increase's period.


What we are claiming is that they work and work damn good, see the attached dyno of an SRT-8 that we hot lapped on our dyno.

3 run back to back to back


What you will see is virtually the same hp and tq on 3 runs and in fact the "Hot" runs actually made more hp than the cold 1st run

This never happens on the SRT-8's they always lose power kind of like when you first get in the car when its cold and it feels and is way faster , then as the engine gets warmer the snappy ness go's away


See attached dyno

Also we have had these out for a few weeks now and there is a lot of independent results that are all very positive on all the usual forums

Scott
GS Motorsports
562.777.1075

GSM
03-30-2007, 04:22 PM
TCM's stage II


There are several versions of the tcms, we can program all of them to work on all the 05-06 vehicles.


The 07's take only the latest version and they are on back order from Chrysler . we will let everyone now when they are avilaible.

Scott
GS Motorsports
562.777.1075

BuilderBill
03-30-2007, 04:34 PM
TCM's stage II


There are several versions of the tcms, we can program all of them to work on all the 05-06 vehicles.


The 07's take only the latest version and they are on back order from Chrysler . we will let everyone now when they are avilaible.

Scott
GS Motorsports
562.777.1075
Scott...if you can program the '07 TCM (to be available later) will you have the capability to do anything with the '07 PCM. I don't think B&G will ever get to programing the '07 PCM.
Bill

GSM
03-30-2007, 04:42 PM
We have been working on th ecu's for a while.


everytime chrysler makes a change the check sums change and the programing is different...ughhh



Scott

gculver
03-30-2007, 04:44 PM
Scott, Any before numbers on that same SRT?? Is it possible to Vin# code the TCM's, to circumvent the use of a starscan!! Thanks

BuilderBill
03-30-2007, 05:04 PM
Scott, Any before numbers on that same SRT?? Is it possible to Vin# code the TCM's, to circumvent the use of a starscan!! Thanks
GC...I just asked them that question on the phone! They said they had the starscan at the track to program the Generals TCM into the vehicle. Can't be installed without the starscan.
Bill

rainmaker
03-30-2007, 05:06 PM
I have attached a dyno to clarify the mod.



Scott what were the A/f ratio's of each run?

Thanks.

GSM
03-30-2007, 05:17 PM
Scott, Any before numbers on that same SRT?? Is it possible to Vin# code the TCM's, to circumvent the use of a starscan!! Thanks


Yes....the customer was really happy and I let him post the gains...so as not to look like a sales tactic, I will post the complete run down here are the temp different

you can send us your ecu and tcm and we can pre burn the tcm/ecu and send it back...ready to go


Scott

gculver
03-30-2007, 05:21 PM
GC...I just asked them that question on the phone! They said they had the starscan at the track to program the Generals TCM into the vehicle. Can't be installed without the starscan.
Bill


Yea! Thats what I was told a while back, but figured I'd try. Just messin earlier, Bill!

gculver
03-30-2007, 05:22 PM
Yes....the customer was really happy and I let him post the gains...so as not to look like a sales tactic, I will post the complete run down

you can send us your ecu and tcm and we can pre burn the tcm/ecu and send it back...ready to go


Scott

Scott, Excellent news, I'll call ya soon!!!

BuilderBill
03-30-2007, 06:13 PM
Scott, Excellent news, I'll call ya soon!!!
Now we are getting somewhere!!! Someday even for the '07's!!

Shooter_t1
04-01-2007, 01:44 AM
The GSM tranny box is also a keeper over the factory reflash. I can manually upshift and the shifts are way better than stock. The converter flashes higher and the shifts are right now. The tranny shifts at 6100-6200 vs 5800rpm and drops back to 4800rpm rather than the 4500rpm previously and bangs right up to 61-6200 and again shifts like clock work!!

Sarge, I'm wondering if maybe your factory flash was done wrong. When I got the updated TSB done to my 06, after about 10 mins of me driving it like i stole it, mine was shifting at 6200rpm with NO hesitation.
So basically the only difference between the factory TSB flash and the GSM flash is the ability to stay in whatever gear you choose right?.

theoneyoucantreplace
04-01-2007, 10:34 AM
Agreed! GSM is a very low end vendor. I have lost all faith and trust in any of their products, and published mod results.




1st class outfit that GSM LOL! Still no phone call. Hey G.Confusion, please use your influence with GSM..I have credit card in hand ready for an '07 TCM & an "A" pillar w/ gauge. If Southern Hotrod had this stuff it would already be in the mail to me. What a difference in our vendors! Oh well, most of them are part-timers anyway any don't care one way or another.

Bill

generalconfusion
04-01-2007, 01:39 PM
Sarge, I'm wondering if maybe your factory flash was done wrong. When I got the updated TSB done to my 06, after about 10 mins of me driving it like i stole it, mine was shifting at 6200rpm with NO hesitation.
So basically the only difference between the factory TSB flash and the GSM flash is the ability to stay in whatever gear you choose right?.

No.... it was done correctly. The trans lost the ability to upshift manually and HAL took over. I as others experienced the 5800rpm 1st to 2nd and 6000rpm 2nd to 3rd......the shifts were definetly better than the original factory flash.

The difference with this flash are the (looks like) 6100rpm shifts and one step even firmer......not B&M Turbo 400 chirp the tires firm.......but firmer than what the reflash gave us. The downside to the GSM reflash is you WILL hit the rev limiter if your not quick enough to shift it manually. I did like HAL taking over if I pulled it to the left in 1st and decided to take of this way. Otherwise leave it in "D" and let it do its thing.

Fontana is open this Saturday April 7th......I will be there just debating on running the Jeep or the AMG.

HoustonSRT-8
04-01-2007, 01:55 PM
The trans lost the ability to upshift manually and HAL took over.

What? :confused:

gculver
04-01-2007, 02:04 PM
No.... it was done correctly. The trans lost the ability to upshift manually and HAL took over. I as others experienced the 5800rpm 1st to 2nd and 6000rpm 2nd to 3rd......the shifts were definetly better than the original factory flash.

The difference with this flash are the (looks like) 6100rpm shifts and one step even firmer......not B&M Turbo 400 chirp the tires firm.......but firmer than what the reflash gave us. The downside to the GSM reflash is you WILL hit the rev limiter if your not quick enough to shift it manually. I did like HAL taking over if I pulled it to the left in 1st and decided to take of this way. Otherwise leave it in "D" and let it do its thing.

Fontana is open this Saturday April 7th......I will be there just debating on running the Jeep or the AMG.

Appreciate your input on the GSM TCM stage II. One of my complaints from the beginning was lazzy a$$ shifts and to much TM, even though Dave removes some TM from the ECU, its still lazzy even with the TSB flash. I'm gonna give it try. BTW, No debate, run both, I'd like to see the #'s on the AMG, I almost bought one a few years back!!

BuilderBill
04-01-2007, 03:04 PM
Appreciate your input on the GSM TCM stage II. One of my complaints from the beginning was lazzy a$$ shifts and to much TM, even though Dave removes some TM from the ECU, its still lazzy even with the TSB flash. I'm gonna give it try.
I will also try a GSM TCM stage II as soon as available for the '07. Unless I misunderstood Ryan, he said I needed to have it installed at the dealer. Did you here that it could be flashed like a B&G PCM where they burn in the VIN?

FAST should have their programmable version http://www.fuelairspark.com/Catalogs/NP2007/pdf/9.pdf
out for our combination this summer according to Competition Cams.
Bill

Inferno SRT8
04-01-2007, 03:10 PM
I will also try a GSM TCM stage II as soon as available for the '07. Unless I misunderstood Ryan, he said I needed to have it installed at the dealer. Did you here that it could be flashed like a B&G PCM where they burn in the VIN?

FAST should have their programmable version http://www.fuelairspark.com/Catalogs/NP2007/pdf/9.pdf
out for our combination this summer according to Completion Cams.
Bill

Ok this is some great news!!!!!!!! Whats the price on it, anyone?