It seems that the 6.1 Hemi and F.I. don't seem to get along very well due to the ECM calibration, Kenne Bell has been trying to introduce a kit since 2003 and they still don't have anything available, and neither Vortech,Paxton,Magnacharger, nor ATI have made an attempt to produce a kit.

All I have seen are a couple companies trying to design their own kits using standard head units, and I would be very cautious before being a guinea pig for one of these new systems.

Hopefully someone will crack the ECM so it can be tweaked for tuning in a forced induction application. (Mike Wesley where are you?)

Kenne Bell 5.7 Hemi attempt (http://kennebell.net/superchargers/dodge/hemi57/hemi57.htm)

I guess Bill and I will be the guinea pigs ASM is known for their quality work and have been testing the kit for some time. SO FINGERS CROSSED. If I toast the bottom end i am going 426 specially built for FI.

I have called every Programmer company i know and they are all not far from making a hand held or flashable unit. Till then you are correct we are twiddling our thumbs anxiously awaiting!!!!!! :(

Spent some time on the phone today.

Edge= Nope, sticking with diesel.

Predator= 2-3 Months

SCT= In the works no date of release.

Hypertech= Nope, Ditched the SRT vehicles not enough demand???

SuperChips= Nope, Nothing being worked on.

Jet= No programmer. just their plug in timing and fuel curve modifier.

wtf thats not good...

I like how Kenne Bell says they cannot offer a kit for the '03 Hemi, yet shows an '03 on their page with one installed.....

Nobody has cracked the pcm yet but there are plenty of companies out with kits. ATI Procharger, ASM, GSM, Hahn, Hennessey, STS, CTS, Cartuning, Kenne Bell etc. are all out or about to hit the streets but all use a piggyback.

Nobody has cracked the pcm yet but there are plenty of companies out with kits. ATI Procharger, ASM, GSM, Hahn, Hennessey, STS, CTS, Cartuning, Kenne Bell etc. are all out or about to hit the streets but all use a piggyback.
If a piggy back works that is fine with me.
I am tired of waiting for B&G! Next month... next month ......

Im in talks with a guy at Kenne Bell and im asking whats up with this. Hopefully Ill hear something back from him soon. Kenne Bell should be able to develop something

I emailed kenne bell no longer than a month ago because they are just down the freeway and they said they were not gonna produce anything as of now.

Is it just the PCM? I find it hard to believe that these companies can't generate a programmer/custom PCM for the 6.1....I mean, how many thousands of vehicles have they modified?

Could it be a mechanical problem like too high compression ratios, or weak internals that can't handle the boost? What about the Hennesey turbo, also forced induction, they must have cracked the PCM to do that. Somebody must know the answer out there....please, help us out if you do.

Is it just the PCM? I find it hard to believe that these companies can't generate a programmer/custom PCM for the 6.1....I mean, how many thousands of vehicles have they modified?

Could it be a mechanical problem like too high compression ratios, or weak internals that can't handle the boost? What about the Hennesey turbo, also forced induction, they must have cracked the PCM to do that. Somebody must know the answer out there....please, help us out if you do.

I'm sure they could the problem is that these cars were manufactured to run a really long time so they want to keep them on the safe side. I'm sure they could make an aggressive pcm that might blow out your trans at 70k instead of 100k but to us thats the trade off, we know that. DC is hurting for $$ and not bad rep so they're playing it extremely safe and borderline stupid.

I agree, DCX does not want to lower the reliability or durability of their products, but we are not talking about a factory kit from DCX (or even MOPAR). These are FI companies that offer kits ranging from mild street at 8-10psi, to take out the stops drag strip monster kits with 40+psi of boost (like a stick of dynamite in your intake manifold). They would not be shy about doing this unless even modest kits were found to ruin the engine. That is what I fear, and suspect.

It seems that the 6.1 Hemi and F.I. don't seem to get along very well due to the ECM calibration, Kenne Bell has been trying to introduce a kit since 2003 and they still don't have anything available, and neither Vortech,Paxton,Magnacharger, nor ATI have made an attempt to produce a kit.

All I have seen are a couple companies trying to design their own kits using standard head units, and I would be very cautious before being a guinea pig for one of these new systems.


It's strange that we haven't heard anything about a Whipple S/C...
The 03 Magnum Concept that dodge was showing at the car show's back then had a 5.7 hemi with a Whipple supercharger in it that was rated at 430 hp. You'd figure Whipple must have some idea of what it takes.

It's strange that we haven't heard anything about a Whipple S/C...
The 03 Magnum Concept that dodge was showing at the car show's back then had a 5.7 hemi with a Whipple supercharger in it that was rated at 430 hp. You'd figure Whipple must have some idea of what it takes.

I contacted whipple directly on this and they basically said that they have no plans for a supercharger for the 6.1L hemi.

As far as engine management, there isn't much out there, but why don't some of you go with DFI or something of that sort? When I used to play with turbo Hondas, before any plug and play units were out, we ran DFI, FAST and Haltech. Some time ago, we ran the DFI 7.0, and it was pretty good on the street.

There's always piggybacks like the GReddy E-Manage. It's built for imports, but I'm sure they work the same, as there are many parameters in that unit.

I agree, DCX does not want to lower the reliability or durability of their products, but we are not talking about a factory kit from DCX (or even MOPAR). These are FI companies that offer kits ranging from mild street at 8-10psi, to take out the stops drag strip monster kits with 40+psi of boost (like a stick of dynamite in your intake manifold). They would not be shy about doing this unless even modest kits were found to ruin the engine. That is what I fear, and suspect.


The bottom line is DCX doesn't have to deal with the copious amounts of warranty fraud that Ford/Chevy and apparently the rest of the world does on a daily basis. They will do anything to preserve their ace in the hole, including thumbing their nose at the performance enthusiasts that buy their products. This is enforced by the SRT Engs. chat sessions; some of their answers make me laugh so hard I should go see a doc to make sure I didn't incur a hernia.
IMO, it's a whoeheartedly assinine way to go about things, especially when implemented in the "Street and Racing Technology" Branch. :confused:
There are many other ways to protect themselves from WF, but obviously they're not interested. ****ers.

As far as engine management, there isn't much out there, but why don't some of you go with DFI or something of that sort? When I used to play with turbo Hondas, before any plug and play units were out, we ran DFI, FAST and Haltech. Some time ago, we ran the DFI 7.0, and it was pretty good on the street.

There's always piggybacks like the GReddy E-Manage. It's built for imports, but I'm sure they work the same, as there are many parameters in that unit.

We shouldn't have to swap to a $3k aftermarket engine management system to tune a stock longblock bolt on deal. That's like using a 50 cal BMG to get rid of a pigeon problem.

When Mike Wesley developed AutoLogic for tuning the Ford EEC-IV ECM, Ford did everything they could to stop him from bringing it to market, but he beat them in a court battle and begin to market it to the public, I was fortunate enough to have Mike personally tune my old twin turbo 1994 SVT Cobra (5 liter) and he definitely knew his shyt.

I work for DCX and the only thing stopping me from owning a SRT is the lack of performance aftermarket support.

Im in talks with a guy at Kenne Bell and im asking whats up with this. Hopefully Ill hear something back from him soon. Kenne Bell should be able to develop something

I emailed kenne bell no longer than a month ago because they are just down the freeway and they said they were not gonna produce anything as of now.

The KB will be out soon enough just not for the Cherokee yet unless one of you wants to lend their SRT-8.

The custom tuners, employed by all of the FI kit makers, equiped with a lap top can design a engine management protocol for the 6.1 plus a FI kit fairly easily, and not costing 3K to do it. Sure, it would be nice if the folks at SRT would be supportive, or even help, but....a lack of cooperation is not enough to stop the development dead in its' tracks.

Good news about Kenn Belle's kit, what is the source of the information? Any insight as to particular problems in development and why such a long delay?

I am still concerned/suspicious that the 6.1 may not be up to the task of FI. As a for instance/analagy, I have read that the rumored upcoming Blue Devil Vette does not use the LS7 block for similar reasons (high compression, thin piston walls...anable to handle FI), so they use the less high strung LS2 block (modified of course).

The custom tuners, employed by all of the FI kit makers, equiped with a lap top can design a engine management protocol for the 6.1 plus a FI kit fairly easily, and not costing 3K to do it. Sure, it would be nice if the folks at SRT would be supportive, or even help, but....a lack of cooperation is not enough to stop the development dead in its' tracks.

Reality says otherwise. How many years have we not been able to truly tune a Dodge V8? Right now legal issues have stopped development dead in its tracks.


I am still concerned/suspicious that the 6.1 may not be up to the task of FI. As a for instance/analagy, I have read that the rumored upcoming Blue Devil Vette does not use the LS7 block for similar reasons (high compression, thin piston walls...anable to handle FI), so they use the less high strung LS2 block (modified of course).

:confused:

Chevy blocks and the Hemi 6.1 are not related, I don't see the connection? The LS9 (Blue Devil motor) uses a unique block, which is not to say the LS2 can't handle boost. The LS7 being a bored and resleeved LS2 shouldn't really be used for FI because of the lack of meat between bores causing flex, ring issues, and poor gasket sealing. Compression has nothing to do with the block.
The OEM rods/rod bolts and pistons are going to be the issues with a 6.1 + FI. The same holds true for LS motors and Modulars as well.

Not to be too cynical in this reply, but, how long have we had a Dodge (or DCX) V-8 in a vehicle that would be worth investing 6000 dollars plus for FI? Even now, the the 300C, Magnum, and other V-8 applications are not exactly sports car or muscle car material by virtue of design (looks), and size/weight. Certainly not in comparison to a Mustang, Corvette, Camaro, etc. The Charger is a step in the right direction, but it has only been around for a few years now (and still has 4 doors). The GCSRT8...well, this beast is an enigma from many perspectives (and thats' why we love them so much). My point is that only recently is it likely that the FI kitmakers believe that there is a market for FI kits for the DCX V8s.

Secondly, yes, that is my point and concern about the 6.1. Is it (like the LS7) not well suited for FI? I wonder.

Not to be too cynical in this reply, but, how long have we had a Dodge (or DCX) V-8 in a vehicle that would be worth investing 6000 dollars plus for FI? Even now, the the 300C, Magnum, and other V-8 applications are not exactly sports car or muscle car material by virtue of design (looks), and size/weight. Certainly not in comparison to a Mustang, Corvette, Camaro, etc. The Charger is a step in the right direction, but it has only been around for a few years now (and still has 4 doors). The GCSRT8...well, this beast is an enigma from many perspectives (and thats' why we love them so much). My point is that only recently is it likely that the FI kitmakers believe that there is a market for FI kits for the DCX V8s.

The thing is we haven't and don't just need tuning software for FI applications.

Secondly, yes, that is my point and concern about the 6.1. Is it (like the LS7) not well suited for FI? I wonder.

The 6.1 block has more in common with an LS2 casting than LS7--especially where it counts between bores. They are stout blocks and should have no problem handling 700HP or more. I can't speak for the stock forged crank but you can always replace it (if you go stroker you'll have to anyway) with an aftermarket forged or billet 4340 piece.
Like I said before the real weakpoints are the rods/rod bolts/pistons. Buy any currently available N/A domestic performance V8, throw FI on it, and you're going to have to replace the pistons/rods. They all basically use the same junk internals--by comparison to aftermarket parts.

The 6.1 block has more in common with an LS2 casting than LS7--especially where it counts between bores. They are stout blocks and should have no problem handling 700HP or more. I can't speak for the stock forged crank but you can always replace it (if you go stroker you'll have to anyway) with an aftermarket forged or billet 4340 piece.
Like I said before the real weakpoints are the rods/rod bolts/pistons. Buy any currently available N/A domestic performance V8, throw FI on it, and you're going to have to replace the pistons/rods. They all basically use the same junk internals--by comparison to aftermarket parts.

I'm thinking the rods/rod bolts/pistons would be okay with 6, maybe 8 psi with all supporting mods, such as fuel, tune, etc.?

I'm thinking the rods/rod bolts/pistons would be okay with 6, maybe 8 psi with all supporting mods, such as fuel, tune, etc.?

They should last a while with low boost as long as the A/F and timing are where they should be. Though when you want to step up and make more serious power without having to worry if the motor will leave you stranded, you're going to need forged internals.

I beg to differ on replacing internals on all FI NA V8s. My 99 F body with a Vortech 11PSI kit and pulley is doing just fine with 10K miles on the combination, and a good handful of runs at the track. The trans/rearend/driveline...now that is a different story. Put on the subframe connectors and start to hook with some sticky tires and kiss those parts goodbye.

I am still unsure about the durability of the 6.1 with a FI unit. You mention that it can handle 700hp...that is encouraging, but then you go on to say that you have to replace all of the "junk" stock internals...so which is it without tearing the engine apart?

I beg to differ on replacing internals on all FI NA V8s. My 99 F body with a Vortech 11PSI kit and pulley is doing just fine with 10K miles on the combination, and a good handful of runs at the track. The trans/rearend/driveline...now that is a different story. Put on the subframe connectors and start to hook with some sticky tires and kiss those parts goodbye.

In truth, you're on borrowed time. You have cast pistons, PM/sintered OEM rods, and cheap rod bolts. One bad tank of gas or missed shift is all that it may take to put an end to the fun.
There are those who think it's safe to run 1000HP through an OEM forged 03/04 Cobra shortblock. In reality at 550rwhp+ the main caps will walk, and the skirts of the forged slugs will collapse. Again, this is with much higher quality internals than you have. Remember, just because you can doesn't mean you should. Sure you can roll the dice and take your chances, but if you want real durability it's obvious what needs to be done.

I am still unsure about the durability of the 6.1 with a FI unit. You mention that it can handle 700hp...that is encouraging, but then you go on to say that you have to replace all of the "junk" stock internals...so which is it without tearing the engine apart?

The block is 700hp+ capable, the stock internals are not.

You have 2 options on how to deal with FI with the 6.1. Run her with the stock bottom end until she pops, and risk windowing the block with a rod, or doing it right the first time around and building the bottom to handle what it wasn't designed to from the factory. If you have the $ and can deal with the downtime, by all means, go to town on the stock shortblock.

I
The block is 700hp+ capable, the stock internals are not.

You have 2 options on how to deal with FI with the 6.1. Run her with the stock bottom end until she pops, and risk windowing the block with a rod, or doing it right the first time around and building the bottom to handle what it wasn't designed to from the factory. If you have the $ and can deal with the downtime, by all means, go to town on the stock shortblock.

I will FI the stock block till it gives up, I hope it lasts long enough for me to have a worked 426 sitting in my garage!!!;)

I will FI the stock block till it gives up, I hope it lasts long enough for me to have a worked 426 sitting in my garage!!!;)
Believe I may take the other approach!;)
Hate to be stranded....ok the driveline will still strand me. Gotstroke, you got it!
Bill

I guess we will see about the borowed time I am on. I know it isn't scientific, but I now plenty of folks with FI V8s (Chevy LS1 and beyond mostly), and at 10psi, I have yet to see the internals fail before something else goes (mostly drivetrain/tranny/rear). I have even see the compressor unit itself fail before the internals with this modest amount of boost.

As I think further, factory turbo and supercharged applications without race level internals routinely run 10-15 psi and last north of 75K miles in most instances (again, with other things failing befoe the internals).

I guess we will see about the borowed time I am on. I know it isn't scientific, but I now plenty of folks with FI V8s (Chevy LS1 and beyond mostly), and at 10psi, I have yet to see the internals fail before something else goes (mostly drivetrain/tranny/rear). I have even see the compressor unit itself fail before the internals with this modest amount of boost.

I know a few people with stock shortblock Modulars/LSXs paired with low boost, fat tunes, and no timing that have lived ten, even 30k miles. However I know of a ****load of people whose stock shortblocks let go, some with as little as 6psi/under 400rwhp.
I realize that I'm not telling you what you want to hear, but like it or not it's the truth. Believe what you want, it's your motor. Like I said before, just because you can doesn't mean you should.

As I think further, factory turbo and supercharged applications without race level internals routinely run 10-15 psi and last north of 75K miles in most instances (again, with other things failing befoe the internals).

First, 4340 forged H beams and non 2618 forged pistons are not what I'd call race level internals.
Tell me one factory application of forced induction that didn't use forged pistons/rods? You can't.

Believe I may take the other approach!;)
Hate to be stranded....ok the driveline will still strand me. Gotstroke, you got it!
Bill

I'm share the same sentiment, do it once and do it right. :)

I will FI the stock block till it gives up, I hope it lasts long enough for me to have a worked 426 sitting in my garage!!!;)


Also a good plan;) Though you're going to need a larger blower with that many more inches. :p

Also a good plan;) Though you're going to need a larger blower with that many more inches. :p

Some one has to find out the true limits of the bottom end. I thought Bob was going to do it. Oh well that leaves me. I will try the AMS charger at its 6psi, If a programmible tune comes out i will push the PSI UP.

On my GTI VR6 i ran 6-8psi then got bored, Bumped it up to 10-12psi and the ring lands were first to go. When I tore down the block the Lands were in pieces.

Some one has to find out the true limits of the bottom end. I thought Bob was going to do it. Oh well that leaves me. I will try the AMS charger at its 6psi, If a programmible tune comes out i will push the PSI UP.

Yes I agree, and appreciate your future contribution of data to our humble cause;)

On my GTI VR6 i ran 6-8psi then got bored, Bumped it up to 10-12psi and the ring lands were first to go. When I tore down the block the Lands were in pieces.

Nice work:D

Well, I am at 10 and counting....time will tell.

Detonation kills engines in a forced induction application, if you stay out of detonation by having the correct tune you can push a stock block past its limits.

I made over 600 HP with a stock 5 liter Ford on pump gas over 10 years ago.

Detonation kills engines in a forced induction application, if you stay out of detonation by having the correct tune you can push a stock block past its limits.

I made over 600 HP with a stock 5 liter Ford on pump gas over 10 years ago.

Detonation kills pistons, load and rpm kill rods/rod bolts. With the type of internals we're talking about you're going to lose a rod/rod bolt before you crack a piston/ring land.
What year was your 5.0? '92 and under had forged slugs from the factory. Like I've said twice already, you either subscribe to the do it once, do it right theory or you don't. I would personally never run that kind of power through a stock bottom end. You're just waiting on it to pop.

No detonation so far. Waiting to pop...I suppose, but that could be applied to anything, if the wait is 40000 miles of fun, I'd just as soon go that way and cross that bridge when I come to it. tearing down the engine and replacing the internals is a major job that will easily double the cost of the project. So much so that if that were the only option, why not buy a crate motor with FI from the get go?

No detonation so far. Waiting to pop...I suppose, but that could be applied to anything, if the wait is 40000 miles of fun, I'd just as soon go that way and cross that bridge when I come to it. tearing down the engine and replacing the internals is a major job that will easily double the cost of the project. So much so that if that were the only option, why not buy a crate motor with FI from the get go?

One more time. Hypereuctectic/cast pistons, powdered metal/sintered rods, and the crap that passes for stock rod bolts weren't desinged or expected to see 11lbs of boost. If you don't want to accept it, so be it, however that doesn't mean that it isn't the truth.
As for preassembled crate motors, don't get me started...;)

It is not that I don't believe you (I do, you sound like you know your stuff). But, I see it as a theoretic weakness contrasted against the reality that I, and others, have seen tens of thousands of miles with these set ups that cost half as much as a full rebuild (and still not cheap at that) in which lots of other things are going bad before the engine crumps.

For street use (and an occasional romp at the track), it is not a bad strategy, IMO. Of course not for the serious amateur, and certainly not for a professional, but it works great for me and others like me (so far). When, or if it does go, then I will pony up for a stouter replacement.

It doesn't make sense to spend the money on tearing down an engine (that is paid for) and rebuilding it, when I could start from scratch for less money (using a non crate motor so "I don't get you started" LOL).

Just two different mindsets really, no big deal.

Detonation kills pistons, load and rpm kill rods/rod bolts. With the type of internals we're talking about you're going to lose a rod/rod bolt before you crack a piston/ring land.
What year was your 5.0? '92 and under had forged slugs from the factory. Like I've said twice already, you either subscribe to the do it once, do it right theory or you don't. I would personally never run that kind of power through a stock bottom end. You're just waiting on it to pop.

Detonation kills everything from damaged combustion chambers to bent con-rods, my 5 liter was a 1994 with hyperpathetic pistons, running 10 PSI on a Incon Systems twin turbosystem.

Detonation kills everything from damaged combustion chambers to bent con-rods, my 5 liter was a 1994 with hyperpathetic pistons, running 10 PSI on a Incon Systems twin turbosystem.


It's going to kill the pistons before the rods, not that they need any help since they fail on their own all the time.

Spent some time on the phone today.

Edge= Nope, sticking with diesel.

Predator= 2-3 Months

SCT= In the works no date of release.

Hypertech= Nope, Ditched the SRT vehicles not enough demand???

SuperChips= Nope, Nothing being worked on.

Jet= No programmer. just their plug in timing and fuel curve modifier.

TRY POWER CHIPS in Los Angeles. They just cracked the code for the ML63 and specialize in Siemens ECU's.