I started talking about this in another thread, but I feel it deserves its own. Ok so the 426's are getting 470 to 530 hp, 666's 440 is getting 53X something. These engines have a big difference in hp, almost 100 hp + or -. Why? Is it pistons, cams, heads?? Why are they so different, and who's is the fastest, and why? Then what would happen if you put that kind of money in a 6.1L? A NA 6.1 should be able to put out the same kind of numbers if you do it right. Why or has anyone done out a 6.1L to it's max potential.

Ok so the 426's are getting 470 to 530 hp, 666's 440 is getting 53X something. These engines have a big difference in hp, almost 100 hp + or -. Why? Is it pistons, cams, heads?? Why are they so different, and who's is the fastest, and why? Then what would happen if you put that kind of money in a 6.1L? A NA 6.1 should be able to put out the same kind of numbers if you do it right. Why or has anyone done out a 6.1L to it's max potential.

It appears that the difference in an Arrington based 426 vs 440 (in a Jeep) is about 10hp and about the same difference in torque. The important factor is the ramp up and curve not the peak output. Of course this is based on simple dyno sheets performed on different dyno machines in different parts of the country. I stated Arrington based because, in a Jeep these appear to be the only engines making this kind of power.

A built N/A 6.1 will see to date about 450hp/430tq. All this is due to bore and stroke configuration. Remember the old saying....."there is no substitute for cubic inches" and that holds true in all cases when you are trying to make big N/A horsepower/torque. You also have to ask, how streetable do you want it? You could make a 500hp 6.1 but forget using pump gas or driving it to work.

You may want to "google" stroker or bore vs stroke to familarize yourself with the difference and affects of overbore vs overstroke vs square engine configurations.



.

Remember the old saying....."there is no substitute for cubic inches" and that holds true in all cases when you are trying to make big N/A horsepower/torque.


.


I've heard "There is no replacement for displacement"


Of course, I've also heard "Boost, the replacement for displacement"

:D

I've heard "There is no replacement for displacement"


Of course, I've also heard "Boost, the replacement for displacement"

:D


YOUR right.....I messed that up..lol! But you got the jist of it

450 hp out of a 6.1L Is that really the best so far? It just seems like there must more in a 6.1 5.0 stangs are getting 600 without FI or go go juice. Is it just a money thing?

440 the max power....and nitrous

426 for max N/A power...and boost and nitrous

392 for max boost and longevity

370 for max longevity and reliability



i'll take a 392 please....for max boost and longevity as well

Hemi~C the 9 second magnum man will agree

Well Paul it looks like we might all get a 6.4L in the next year or so. (see 6.4L thread)

It appears that the difference in an Arrington based 426 vs 440 (in a Jeep) is about 10hp and about the same difference in torque. The important factor is the ramp up and curve not the peak output. Of course this is based on simple dyno sheets performed on different dyno machines in different parts of the country. I stated Arrington based because, in a Jeep these appear to be the only engines making this kind of power.

A built N/A 6.1 will see to date about 450hp/430tq. All this is due to bore and stroke configuration. Remember the old saying....."there is no substitute for cubic inches" and that holds true in all cases when you are trying to make big N/A horsepower/torque. You also have to ask, how streetable do you want it? You could make a 500hp 6.1 but forget using pump gas or driving it to work.

You may want to "google" stroker or bore vs stroke to familarize yourself with the difference and affects of overbore vs overstroke vs square engine configurations.



.

Sarge:
On the SAME dyno compared to a 426 in the SAME car the 440 gained 50 plus TQ and HP AWD. It was 455AWHP vs 512 AWHP. Just wanted to clarify. I have also seen 475 AWHP out of Arringtons 426 with the smaller wider lsa 607 cam to give a comparison on that as well.
A.J.

Sounds to me like in the infancy of the 440, and with so few 392's, no one is comparing apples to apples. Unless its the same block, cam, rotating assembly, etc, on the same dyno, same day... all this is based on a lot of speculation.

Screw displacement, somebody put 35psi to a 6.1!!!!

14 CI isn't going to buy you much with a pump gas N/A motor, maybe 20hp if you're lucky all else equally optimized for the application at hand.

Everyone needs to keep in mind that the top end makes the HP, the bottom end inc displacement only holds it and to some degree (in conjunction with cam specs, intake manifold runner length, head flow/velocity, etc) decides at what rpm peaks will occur.

14 CI isn't going to buy you much with a pump gas N/A motor, maybe 20hp if you're lucky all else equally optimized for the application at hand.

The Engine Dyno testing at Arrington shows the same results as posted. I have seen a MIN gains of 35 hp and 40 tq on Arringtons engine dyno 426-440.
Arrington is Working very hard to refine the 440 and all info is stated FACTS from real dyno pulls engine and chassis. From what I know Arrington is the only builder to date to have an engine dyno running on FACTORY electronics. There are many running on Fast systems but not OEM electronics. I am only posting facts based on ACTUAL events and dyno sessions none of which were specifically set up to do a comparison. Time and Time again when I see engines on the dyno at Arrington I see the Same results every time. Thats worth more than hypothesis.
A.J.

So Andy and AJ

What engine do you guys most recommend for high boost???

interesting thread :D

so whats the best setup for the ultimate streetable jeep?!

So Andy and AJ

What engine do you guys most recommend for high boost???

The answer to that question depends on what you mean by high boost. As it stands right now I say 426 based on the current late model Hemi Technology. I have very STRONG experiences and feelings on a very specific engine combo for high boost high power applications and to be honest I don't see it happening for 1-2 years. If I had to pull the trigger today 426 but use the k-1 crank.
A.J.

interesting thread :D

so whats the best setup for the ultimate streetable jeep?!

426 or 440 will give you a real streetable ride. If your after that 200-300k reliability like factory stick to 6.1 with heads and cam and remember this is just an OPINION.
A.J.

So Andy and AJ

What engine do you guys most recommend for high boost???

Stock 6.1 (clean up hone) with quality internals. FI= Blower/Turbo makes all the power, that's why there are 2.3L Evo's running around making 1000awhp. No reason to sacrifice the structural integrity of the bottom end (what holds all the power) for a few more inches that don't matter. That being said a 392 isn't really pushing anything down there.

Sarge:
On the SAME dyno compared to a 426 in the SAME car the 440 gained 50 plus TQ and HP AWD. It was 455AWHP vs 512 AWHP. Just wanted to clarify. I have also seen 475 AWHP out of Arringtons 426 with the smaller wider lsa 607 cam to give a comparison on that as well.
A.J.

AJ
Again two different locations, but my 426 when dynoed by Bob Crespo put down 508hp/508tq, a week later at Stack Performance(just curious) it was 498hp/500tq. Two different dyno, two different locations I run a much smaller cam than the Arrington and stock valve size heads. Based on what I see on Junior666 there isnt much difference. My 426 makes roughly 508 to the wheels x 22% for drivetrain loss thats 619@crank or 1.45hp per cubic inch.......Juniors 440 is 512 x 22% thats 624hp or 1.41hp per cubic inch. Now I dont care about peak I am more concerned with a early flat torque curve and then let the HP fly after 5,500.

The Arrington product is second to none, hands down, but it takes (as you know) figuring out the curve you want to launch a 5100lb vehicle down the track. Its all give and take as well.

The originator of the thread asked what it takes to make a 6.1 develop big power, well besides a light rotating assembly, compression and cam timing along with valve lift are the primary considerations towards that goal. Not a problem, but a cam that is over .600 with the design of this particular non adjustable valve train (or most for that matter) on a daily driver is going to require a trained ear and understanding that around 25k you may want to check the valve springs or endure a potential catastrophic problem.

A long arm engine is always going to make more torque than a big bore engine, but then you get into side load considerations. On a short skirt piston such as ours......well thats a consideration if you want to go 50-100k with out issue. A square engine is always some thing I prefer over a stroker and of course an over bore cant be beat for the higher RPM potential.

Not arguing with you about what Arrington designs or see in their developement, I just think that when you decide to build an engine you need to consider all the plus and minuses of each design, and whether or not if you want a track engine or something you can still drive to work.


.

The Engine Dyno testing at Arrington shows the same results as posted. I have seen a MIN gains of 35 hp and 40 tq on Arringtons engine dyno 426-440.
Arrington is Working very hard to refine the 440 and all info is stated FACTS from real dyno pulls engine and chassis. From what I know Arrington is the only builder to date to have an engine dyno running on FACTORY electronics. There are many running on Fast systems but not OEM electronics. I am only posting facts based on ACTUAL events and dyno sessions none of which were specifically set up to do a comparison. Time and Time again when I see engines on the dyno at Arrington I see the Same results every time. Thats worth more than hypothesis.
A.J.

Sorry bro, 20hp max all else equally optimized on both motors with a motor like this (pushrod/2v, pump gas, N/A).

Bottom ends don't make power, unless you're getting into race bottom ends tricks used that you can't do with a street or street/strip motor.

If arrington is making that much more power they are changing cams/heads/intakes to go along with the bottom end.

If you want facts 440-426=14CI, 35hp/14CI= 2.5 HP/CI Impossible brother. So like I said, the top end is changing along with the bottom.

One other thing, anyone with a 426+ NEEDS a sheetmetal manifold. The stock manifold was never designed to fill an extra 56+ inches and the runner length (a huge determining factor in high rpm/power limitation) is significantly too long for such a motor. Doesn't matter what the runners flow, you can slap a sewer pipe onto each intake port that will flow 1000cfm but won't make squat for power.

Steve
coughHoganscough

Great answers so for guys, lots of good info. Now what constitutes a DD. What do you guys think a DD is. Something that is reliable, or something that doesn't have too much loop, etc.....

That my friend is completely and totally up to you. Some guys think having to run C16 doesn't disqualify their car from being a real DD, others say it can be a pure race car but as long as it's on the street (with mirrors, etc) it's good to go. Only you can say what's acceptable for you (and possibly your family) in this dept.

One other thing, anyone with a 426+ NEEDS a sheetmetal manifold. The stock manifold was never designed to fill an extra 56+ inches and the runner length (a huge determining factor in high rpm/power limitation) is significantly too long for such a motor. Doesn't matter what the runners flow, you can slap a sewer pipe onto each intake port that will flow 1000cfm but won't make squat for power.

Steve
coughHoganscough

Not sure that I understand this statement...more info please

Sorry bro, 20hp max all else equally optimized on both motors with a motor like this (pushrod/2v, pump gas, N/A).

Bottom ends don't make power, unless you're getting into race bottom ends tricks used that you can't do with a street or street/strip motor.

If arrington is making that much more power they are changing cams/heads/intakes to go along with the bottom end.

If you want facts 440-426=14CI, 35hp/14CI= 2.5 HP/CI Impossible brother. So like I said, the top end is changing along with the bottom.

We could debate this untill we are both blue in the face but here is a senario, take engine A and engine B both have the same bore and stroke engine a has 11:1 compression and has a piston .100 in the hole with a raised dome , engine B is 11.0:1 with a flat top piston at zero deck, Proven time and time again the flat top with better quench will make more power and consistant power hands down all the time and be less sensitive to timing due to better flame travel and no dead areas in the chamber. That being said its not a 100% accurate statement that a bottom end doesen't make more power. Ill leave you to your own opinion because it really doesen't matter. My input to this thread was not to make a Hemituner vs MHP debate. I have spoken about real experiences over a 4 month period. If you really want the best setup for turbo or FI you should have a 4.125 bore and a 3 inch stroke but our valvetrains are not ready yet. Lets agree to disagree at this point the dozens of dyno pulls make up my mind the math makes up yours in the end who cares, just offering a take on experience I have witnessed with my own eyes you don't have to agree with it.
A.J.

AJ
Again two different locations, but my 426 when dynoed by Bob Crespo put down 508hp/508tq, a week later at Stack Performance(just curious) it was 498hp/500tq. Two different dyno, two different locations I run a much smaller cam than the Arrington and stock valve size heads. Based on what I see on Junior666 there isnt much difference. My 426 makes roughly 508 to the wheels x 22% for drivetrain loss thats 619@crank or 1.45hp per cubic inch.......Juniors 440 is 512 x 22% thats 624hp or 1.41hp per cubic inch. Now I dont care about peak I am more concerned with a early flat torque curve and then let the HP fly after 5,500.

The Arrington product is second to none, hands down, but it takes (as you know) figuring out the curve you want to launch a 5100lb vehicle down the track. Its all give and take as well.

The originator of the thread asked what it takes to make a 6.1 develop big power, well besides a light rotating assembly, compression and cam timing along with valve lift are the primary considerations towards that goal. Not a problem, but a cam that is over .600 with the design of this particular non adjustable valve train (or most for that matter) on a daily driver is going to require a trained ear and understanding that around 25k you may want to check the valve springs or endure a potential catastrophic problem.

A long arm engine is always going to make more torque than a big bore engine, but then you get into side load considerations. On a short skirt piston such as ours......well thats a consideration if you want to go 50-100k with out issue. A square engine is always some thing I prefer over a stroker and of course an over bore cant be beat for the higher RPM potential.

Not arguing with you about what Arrington designs or see in their developement, I just think that when you decide to build an engine you need to consider all the plus and minuses of each design, and whether or not if you want a track engine or something you can still drive to work.


.

Sarge:
I completely agree that the 4.250 stroke is not the ideal piece for BIG POWER FI applications. But for the guy or gal that wants that raw big block style tire frying torque for 3- 4 gears it is the way to go. My Turbo Hemi project has sleeves and will more than likely have a custom stroke Bryant crank. And Lets be honest here your Mondello Wet flows are not an AVERAGE HEAD. I have a set of heads here that have over 100 hrs of reshapeing and welding and lets just say UNIQUE valve sizes. You have to admit there is not another 426 that makes the power of your 426 so something is definatly different and Ill agree its not the short block ;)
A.J.
A.J.

That all being said, isn't the fastest NA 6.1l 11.57. And the fastest 426 NA time is........well someone fill in the blank here I don't know.

That all being said, isn't the fastest NA 6.1l 11.57. And the fastest 426 NA time is........well someone fill in the blank here I don't know.

The fastest 6.1 N/A Jeep was Keoni's before he supercharged, something I think in the very high 11's.
The fastest 426 or any N/A Jeep to date is Sarge with an 11.57 I believe.

Just on a side note Kokanee, when comparing dyno numbers there is a big difference between rear wheel and all wheel power.

I am taking my Jeep on an all wheel dynojet soon and also am going to pull drive shaft and see what rear wheel is.

Lastly I would like to way one thing that no one can argue with!![U]] This 440 feels like I am riding on air!! When I hit the gas I feel like I am in a roll a coaster holding on for dear life. It is F****** Sick!!!!!!!!!
And dont forget I have had a Head and cam combo and a 426 prior to this!!

666 I do the know difference between an AWD vs a RWD, The number are much lower for the AWD(well not lower), but what is the % loss between the two? Down the drive line I mean. And one more thing I would like to know. With these set ups what engine is going to get the longest life? FI, NA, well basically all the motors we have been talking about.

1/ Not sure what the % difference is but Winston said 512 hp awd would be like 560 rwd.

2/ I am definately not going to answer this as I am not qualified. All I can say is that
everyone who has seen me drive on a daily basis said for me to stay N/A. I really
wanted to slap a supercharger on my 426 but everyone I have dealt with told me i
would kill it!! I never give up the opportunity to teach someone respect for our
Beasts!!!

Touche! :D:D:D:D

You have to admit there is not another 426 that makes the power of your 426 so something is definatly different and Ill agree its not the short block ;)
A.J.
A.J.

There will be another........

We could debate this untill we are both blue in the face but here is a senario, take engine A and engine B both have the same bore and stroke engine a has 11:1 compression and has a piston .100 in the hole with a raised dome , engine B is 11.0:1 with a flat top piston at zero deck, Proven time and time again the flat top with better quench will make more power and consistant power hands down all the time and be less sensitive to timing due to better flame travel and no dead areas in the chamber. That being said its not a 100% accurate statement that a bottom end doesen't make more power.

AJ,

Give me a break, HP is made in the top end period. What's made down there is insignificant by comparison, to say the least. Bottom ends are what they are, and are by far the LEAST important part of the HP equation (as long as they can hold the power/rpm the top end allows for they are more than doing their job). Race engine builders that know what they're doing can spend hundreds of hours perfecting an intake port, just one part of a cylinder head, they may spend 10hrs on the bottom end total.

Ill leave you to your own opinion because it really doesen't matter. My input to this thread was not to make a Hemituner vs MHP debate. I have spoken about real experiences over a 4 month period. If you really want the best setup for turbo or FI you should have a 4.125 bore and a 3 inch stroke but our valvetrains are not ready yet. Lets agree to disagree at this point the dozens of dyno pulls make up my mind the math makes up yours in the end who cares, just offering a take on experience I have witnessed with my own eyes you don't have to agree with it.
A.J.

4.125 bore and a 3" stroke? Thinking out loud I assume you're talking about a 6.1? Since extra stroke allows for a larger mass of air to pass through the motor spooling the turbo(s) more quickly, why destroke a relatively short stroke motor in a turbo app, where's the logic? :confused:
Stroking a 6.1 (IMO) past 392CI (barring a custom crank setup) compromises the reliability/integrity of the OEM design esp when paired with a PA which is why I don't recommend it--but for a pure race setup where reliablilty isn't as high of a concern it (426/440 + BOOST) would be fun while it lasted. :D
Taking this a step further the destroked motor (nearly bored 302 windsor dimensions) with worked heads will like rpm, make less average hp/tq with both peaking higher in the band, and require a custom intake manifold. You must be planning to run a manual trans, and if you plan on going higher than ~7500rpm it better be non synchronized--not streetable. I'm going to take a WAG and say you're going to keep it to 7k if you want it to live on boost, which a built 6.1 bottom end can handle--so why lose the inches? You can run a larger turbo with the same amount of lag and make more peak/avg hp/tq with a 6.1 since you can spin it just as high with a larger turbo :confused: Not a jab, just curious on your thinking...



Anyway, can you confirm that the engines you saw make 35hp more had identical H/C/I? If so, it wasn't optimal for one of them, if not, are we sure the 426 was pushed as hard as the 440?

No one's saying you haven't seen what you claim to with regard to dyno results, however the source of the difference in power is what we're discussing.

I'm sure we'll agree and disagree a lot more in the future relax homey. :p

Not sure that I understand this statement...more info please

Hey Spence,
The bottom line when it comes to intake manifolds (especially on N/A applications) is that more than any other dimension runner length dictates peak tq/hp (aka where your motor will fall on its face). Cross sectional area/volume, etc aren't nearly as important as having the correct runner length.
A 6.1 hemi manifold is a compromise like 99% of modern EFI manifolds. You have to have decently long runners to build torque/low end as the motors will be used in 4200-4800lb vehicles, at the same time you want them to pull up top which is an obvious contradiction. This is why the 6.1 was originially slated for a dual runner intake but due to excessive cost it was never implemented.
Anyway, a Hogans/Wilson manifold is 100% custom tailored to your exact combination and is without question one of the best things you could EVER do for a 426+ CI Hemi, even a 392. After all the bolt-ons, head porting, custom cam, stroked bottom end, the largest restriction left in the motor is the intake manifold--and that statement stands for a stock longblock N/A Jeep as much as it does a 426.
Mark my words, the numbers we see now will be crushed with the addition of such a manifold to a highly built 426/440 like Steve's/666s. Another bonus is that you can use a smaller cam (since the intake is more efficient) meaning a longer powerband and better drivability as well. The tradeoff (with shorter runners) is less low end tq but you have more inches, and you can always match a stall converter.

TTYL

Sounds to me like in the infancy of the 440, and with so few 392's, no one is comparing apples to apples. Unless its the same block, cam, rotating assembly, etc, on the same dyno, same day... all this is based on a lot of speculation.

Screw displacement, somebody put 35psi to a 6.1!!!!

whoa!!! 35psi would be interesting to see on a 6.1L. lol may even be better than last nights display since it was rained out. lol

Hey Spence,
The bottom line when it comes to intake manifolds (especially on N/A applications) is that more than any other dimension runner length dictates peak tq/hp (aka where your motor will fall on its face). Cross sectional area/volume, etc aren't nearly as important as having the correct runner length.
A 6.1 hemi manifold is a compromise like 99% of modern EFI manifolds. You have to have decently long runners to build torque/low end as the motors will be used in 4200-4800lb vehicles, at the same time you want them to pull up top which is an obvious contradiction. This is why the 6.1 was originially slated for a dual runner intake but due to excessive cost it was never implemented.
Anyway, a Hogans/Wilson manifold is 100% custom tailored to your exact combination and is without question one of the best things you could EVER do for a 426+ CI Hemi, even a 392. After all the bolt-ons, head porting, custom cam, stroked bottom end, the largest restriction left in the motor is the intake manifold--and that statement stands for a stock longblock N/A Jeep as much as it does a 426.
Mark my words, the numbers we see now will be crushed with the addition of such a manifold to a highly built 426/440 like Steve's/666s. Another bonus is that you can use a smaller cam (since the intake is more efficient) meaning a longer powerband and better drivability as well. The tradeoff (with shorter runners) is less low end tq but you have more inches, and you can always match a stall converter.

TTYL

Very interesting...THANKS Andy
Is something like this even available for us?

Very interesting...THANKS Andy
Is something like this even available for us?

http://estore.websitepros.com/802805/Detail.bok?no=1373

Very interesting...THANKS Andy
Is something like this even available for us?

NP Spence,

Yes it's already been done by at least one person in Canada (Hogans), they're just a phone call away. Expect to pay around $3500 for a single TB EFI manifold.

Bischoff makes manifolds as well.

How big of a shot could a 6.1 handle with forged internals?

Ya I never thought about adding Nitrous into this conversation. Thoughts?

How big of a shot could a 6.1 handle with forged internals?

Define "handle":) I personally wouldn't run more than a multi stage 250 shot, I'm sure some will/have used more. Honestly I'd probably keep it at 200, I don't like pushing anything with spray.

Ya I never thought about adding Nitrous into this conversation. Thoughts?

Anything a N/A motor likes (ported heads, more cam, ported intake, more compression, basically increased airflow) a nitrous motor will love.

Does that mean the 6.1L can take the biggest shot of nitrous? It has the thickest wall correct?

Sarge:
On the SAME dyno compared to a 426 in the SAME car the 440 gained 50 plus TQ and HP AWD. It was 455AWHP vs 512 AWHP. Just wanted to clarify. I have also seen 475 AWHP out of Arringtons 426 with the smaller wider lsa 607 cam to give a comparison on that as well.
A.J.

Aj,

From your experience what is the highest horsepower that you have seen to date from a 6.1 liter? The reason I ask is because I am debating doing heads or cams on my Rig vs. going to a 426 with the heads that Sarge has on his Jeep. Thanks!

Aj,

From your experience what is the highest horsepower that you have seen to date from a 6.1 liter? The reason I ask is because I am debating doing heads or cams on my Rig vs. going to a 426 with the heads that Sarge has on his Jeep. Thanks!

So far I have seen 743AWHP and 860 TQ with WInston's Jeep with a single turbo. The 6.1 is an AWSOME setup and I would have no reservations about doing a buildup on one. Keep in mind someone I know went 11.004 on a STOCK BLOCK 6.1 with Heads and Cam and N20 in a 300 c srt8. He Drove it to the track and home. He went a dozen 11 teens with the car and has been driving it all the while. Chad Taback SRT Hardware with a LOW compression 6.1 with a blower made over 680 wheel just playing with it at low boost and it nearly left the dyno because the tq line was straight up. All the debate about big cubes, sheet metal intakes ect... do make MORE power and yes its all trick . I want STOCK appearing, Stock driveablility so my Wife can drive it yet when I want to run 10's I have it on tap. IMO a 10 sec street car or Jeep that can drive coast to coast is the way to go. ALL OUT RACE I want short stroke. Good Street driver I want something else. I want to open the hood and not have every one go OH THATS WHY ITS FAST I want them to say Damn how does it go that fast it looks stock. 6.1, 426, 440 thay all make power.
Hope this helps
A.J.

There's some great ideas and opinions floating around in here. Keep it up guys.:D

I want STOCK appearing, Stock driveablility so my Wife can drive it yet when I want to run 10's I have it on tap. IMO a 10 sec street car or Jeep that can drive coast to coast is the way to go. ALL OUT RACE I want short stroke. Good Street driver I want something else. I want to open the hood and not have every one go OH THATS WHY ITS FAST I want them to say Damn how does it go that fast it looks stock. 6.1, 426, 440 thay all make power.
Hope this helps
A.J.

I like this statement and is exactly what I am shooting for, well...outside of the "10's" statement that is

I like this statement and is exactly what I am shooting for, well...outside of the "10's" statement that is


ANd JB will make sure of it ;)
A.J.

Not to beat this to death.......excellent AJ as far as understanding my point and I agree with keeping it simple. I could have built my engine to the next level but as you saw with Tony's(NYSTRATE) we are at that edge with a considerable margin of safety and RELIABILITY. When we started the Mondello heads I was criticized for not having big valves...lol!! for what?? The stock valves are better quality than most after market valves. The design criteria was a high flow strip head with velocity and street reliability. It took alot of cores..lol!

As far as the intake manifold, the one I run has been extrude honed then hand blended and then extrude honed again. It resembles a "bat cave" inside. I understand I gave up some velocity but with a "smaller" cam in a big engine I am not worried about making torque and it doesnt really seem to have hurt it.


.

Not to beat this to death.......excellent AJ as far as understanding my point and I agree with keeping it simple. I could have built my engine to the next level but as you saw with Tony's(NYSTRATE) we are at that edge with a considerable margin of safety and RELIABILITY. When we started the Mondello heads I was criticized for not having big valves...lol!! for what?? The stock valves are better quality than most after market valves. The design criteria was a high flow strip head with velocity and street reliability. It took alot of cores..lol!

As far as the intake manifold, the one I run has been extrude honed then hand blended and then extrude honed again. It resembles a "bat cave" inside. I understand I gave up some velocity but with a "smaller" cam in a big engine I am not worried about making torque and it doesnt really seem to have hurt it.



.
I have made more power over many years of time with parts that were not far away from or actually were factory available parts. I am with you 100%. Look at the Super Stock Challenger that was at NMCA last month the rules on his class are pretty strict and ran solid 10's.
A.J.

Just in terms of metalurgy I would imagine that thicker walls, and shorter stroke, will always last longer and hold up to more power, given that all other variables are even.

So far I have seen 743AWHP and 860 TQ with WInston's Jeep with a single turbo. The 6.1 is an AWSOME setup and I would have no reservations about doing a buildup on one. Keep in mind someone I know went 11.004 on a STOCK BLOCK 6.1 with Heads and Cam and N20 in a 300 c srt8. He Drove it to the track and home. He went a dozen 11 teens with the car and has been driving it all the while. Chad Taback SRT Hardware with a LOW compression 6.1 with a blower made over 680 wheel just playing with it at low boost and it nearly left the dyno because the tq line was straight up. All the debate about big cubes, sheet metal intakes ect... do make MORE power and yes its all trick . I want STOCK appearing, Stock driveablility so my Wife can drive it yet when I want to run 10's I have it on tap. IMO a 10 sec street car or Jeep that can drive coast to coast is the way to go. ALL OUT RACE I want short stroke. Good Street driver I want something else. I want to open the hood and not have every one go OH THATS WHY ITS FAST I want them to say Damn how does it go that fast it looks stock. 6.1, 426, 440 thay all make power.
Hope this helps
A.J.

Thanks for replying AJ! The whole reason I ask is because I want to do things right the first time instead of spending dime after dime, since money does not grow on trees. Thanks again!

Jose

That being said then, if we are going for high HP, and the most structurally sound block, the a FI 6.1L just may be the way to go.

That being said then, if we are going for high HP, and the most structurally sound block, the a FI 6.1L just may be the way to go.

not so sure you can count out the big dogs yet...there are already some strong 426-440 blocks out there putting down some good numbers....however, we do need some more numbers on the SC'd 426's and such to prove that they are definitely in the running....jdoc? ;)

I hear of 600awhp 426 blown Jeeps all the time.....BUT i have YET to hear of run putting down corresponding numbers at the drag strip

I hear of 600awhp 426 blown Jeeps all the time.....BUT i have YET to hear of run putting down corresponding numbers at the drag strip

You dont need 600 awd hp for 11.5's, I'm going to Englishtown on the 24th and will be joining you boys. N/A beast has arrived!!

You dont need 600 awd hp for 11.5's, I'm going to Englishtown on the 24th and will be joining you boys. N/A beast has arrived!!

You're rght, but you do need around 550 for 11.5's, and 650 for 11.0's.

You're rght, but you do need around 550 for 11.5's, and 650 for 11.0's.

I will run an 11.5 on the 24th!!

I will run an 11.5 on the 24th!!

Can't wait to see it!
Bill

I'll be looking forward to it...lol!


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I'll be looking forward to it...lol!


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My first time at the track with the 426 i told Josh I was going to run a 12.05. I was wrong , I ran a 12.06 and my best of 6 runs on my only day at the track was 11.98!! My gps box doesn't lie and I get 2 practice runs every morning before work after a 1/2 hour drive. Runs great heat soaked too!!

You're rght, but you do need around 550 for 11.5's, and 650 for 11.0's.

...so what will 850 get ya? lol

I will run an 11.5 on the 24th!!

let's see it Chris. i know you can do it. ;)