GS Motorsports phenolic spacer results [Archive] - Cherokee SRT8 Forum

: GS Motorsports phenolic spacer results


GSM
02-25-2007, 06:34 PM
Hi Everyone,

we want to get this testing done on the Phenolic spacers

These spacers are a super high heat (700 degree) thermal spacer that installs between the manifold and the cylinder head to keep the intake manifold from absorbing the heat, thus heating the intake charge and losing power.


Here is the testing in order.

#1 Warm car to operating temp hood open measure intake manifold surface temp with infared heat gun, also we added tempature sensing stickers to confirm high readings

#2 Dyno car, we had previously based line this car and today dyno was with in 2% of dynos done before so we had a good baseline

#3 Install Phenolic spacers took about 1/2 an hour and brought car back to operating temp

#4 Dyno Car with the new spacers, the hp and tq number showed an impressive gain, so we dyno's 3 times back to back to back to get the car really Hot. The results showed almost no loss of torque and horsepower.

#5 now with the dyno testing done we measured the intake temps again with the car hotter than normal operating temp because of the 3 back to back dynos

#6 Results are a substantial drop in manifold temps .

#7 impressive gains in the low and mid range hp and tq and no virtually no loss on back to back to back dyno runs which before would yeild much lower numbers on the dyno.


All the testing was done on a customers vehicle(Charger SRT-8) with the customer present,


Scott
GS Motorsports
562.777.1075

HoustonSRT-8
02-25-2007, 07:40 PM
How thick is the spacer? Anything need to be modified? I know that when I put a spacer on my Mustang, the metal tube running between the EGR and passenger side header had to be lengthened.

timster
02-25-2007, 08:08 PM
Those gains, if real, look pretty impressive

FastSRT8GC
02-25-2007, 10:14 PM
I was thinking the same thing, crazy # FOR a SPACER. Hope its true if so I am sold.

Also it hard to tell by their wording .... Was the ManaFlo and CAI installed at the same time? Is this were these #'s are from?

GotStroke?
02-25-2007, 10:38 PM
I'm having a seriously hard time believing this.

akatheproducer
02-25-2007, 11:37 PM
not down with gs

theoneyoucantreplace
02-26-2007, 12:20 AM
I wouldn't trust anything that GS says!

They are not nice people!

jaybruce
02-26-2007, 02:01 AM
Seems like some of the gain may be lost by higher ambient temperatures once to hood is closed?

timster
02-26-2007, 06:28 AM
Seems like some of the gain may be lost by higher ambient temperatures once to hood is closed?


I was thinking the same thing - once the hood is closed, the effect may be diminished a bit. I am sure some folks will buy and test the spacer. If the results are real, which I don't doubt since similar spacers have/are being used with other cars, this mod represents one of the best bang for your buck out there besides the fan mod/ 180thermostat

AlexT
02-26-2007, 07:36 AM
Where's BuilderBill?

He's my test mule. :p

Alex

AlexT
02-26-2007, 07:41 AM
This mod may at least bump up against my "I Can Reasonably Expect This Not To Create any Warranty Issues" standard.

Not that it's even arguable on their part, but I wonder how much ammunition I'd give them towards denying some other unrelated catastrophic engine failure with an installation of something as simple as a phenolic spacer?

Alex

whiskey
02-26-2007, 09:57 AM
I dunno about the catastrophic failures, but this looks like it is a pretty cool part.

rainmaker
02-26-2007, 10:46 AM
I've been trying to avoid this thread cause it has the potential to get out of hand quickly, but I've got to say $120 for a spacer seems like a lot to me. Especially when the TB SS boys can get a stock composite intake for about $115. Next chat session I've got to grill the engineers why they went metal intake...


The other thing i have to wonder about is IAT sensor location. Unless it's in the manifold (which it's not) how much will this mod really effect timing?

**edit just in case anyone is curious:
www.gmpartsdirect.com Type in this part # for the TB SS intake: 12580420

GotStroke?
02-26-2007, 11:42 AM
I was thinking the same thing - once the hood is closed, the effect may be diminished a bit. I am sure some folks will buy and test the spacer. If the results are real, which I don't doubt since similar spacers have/are being used with other cars, this mod represents one of the best bang for your buck out there besides the fan mod/ 180thermostat

LOL, do you know of another phenolic spacer that netted 18rwhp/29rwtq STD, with cam like gains across the board?

GSM
02-26-2007, 11:53 AM
Here is a post from the owner on one of the other boards,




Re: GS Motorsports phenolic spacer results

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Had the Charger at GSMotorsports today and had their new phenolic spacers for the intake manifold installed....well the dyno pulls don't lie and with a before the installation of 362.52 @5500 rpm and an after the installation of 378.79 HP with the engine was good and hot after three back to back pulls I have to say that these spacers are the best bang for the buck on the market. The mid range is even more empressive with a gain of almost 31 Hp and 36 lb/ft of torque @4500 RPM. Anyone reading this who has a 6.1 I have to tell you YOU NEED THIS !!!


The best thing about the Phenolic spacers is they get rid of heat soak issue that is present on the 6.1's .

I have attached another dyno with the back to back to back dyno hot lap and there is very little loss and even a gain on the second run from the first.

We do a lot of dyno's on our 4wd dyno and the first run is always the best on srt8's because of the heat soak.

timster
02-26-2007, 12:05 PM
LOL, do you know of another phenolic spacer that netted 18rwhp/29rwtq STD, with cam like gains across the board?


True.. :)

We need to get someone besides GSM to do the instal/dyno. I tend to believe the result though since the guy who had them installed was there durring the dyno, and posts on the *********** site.

I may actually buy the spacer myself and test it with my butt dyno and G-tech..

GotStroke?
02-26-2007, 12:14 PM
Here is a post from the owner on one of the other boards,




Re: GS Motorsports phenolic spacer results

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Had the Charger at GSMotorsports today and had their new phenolic spacers for the intake manifold installed....well the dyno pulls don't lie and with a before the installation of 362.52 @5500 rpm and an after the installation of 378.79 HP with the engine was good and hot after three back to back pulls I have to say that these spacers are the best bang for the buck on the market. The mid range is even more empressive with a gain of almost 31 Hp and 36 lb/ft of torque @4500 RPM. Anyone reading this who has a 6.1 I have to tell you YOU NEED THIS !!!


The best thing about the Phenolic spacers is they get rid of heat soak issue that is present on the 6.1's .

I have attached another dyno with the back to back to back dyno hot lap and there is very little loss and even a gain on the second run from the first.

We do a lot of dyno's on our 4wd dyno and the first run is always the best on srt8's because of the heat soak.


Actually, they can and often do.

BuilderBill
02-26-2007, 12:21 PM
True.. :)

We need to get someone besides GSM to do the instal/dyno. I tend to believe the result though since the guy who had them installed was there durring the dyno, and posts on the *********** site.

I may actually buy the spacer myself and test it with my butt dyno and G-tech..

I'm with you Timster. I will buy and do a back to back at the strip on a long rental day (PITA to change the thing at the track though) I have coming up at Rockingham as soon as my converter is installed.:) I totally agree with the SRT engineers when they say that so many gains are do to inconsistant dyno runs and they could easily see a 10 hp variation in a day on the dyno.
Didn't I read somewhere (I will search later) that according to the SRT engineers, that the phenolic intake that they prototyped and tested was worth 5-6 hp but the reason they could not justify it was only do to low (relatively) production volume of the 6.1 Hemi to justify tooling costs. Maybe it was "secret" sources that told me! LOL
Bill

FastSRT8GC
02-26-2007, 04:04 PM
I'll bite, I will try it and let you guys know! A bit scared though. :rolleyes:

FastSRT8GC
02-26-2007, 04:10 PM
Actually first I want to see photos of the unit. THe link to the site did not work.
And it was asked before, What modification need to be made for this fit? A quick response will net you $120

timster
02-26-2007, 04:16 PM
http://www.gsmotorsports.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/spacer1-jpg.jpg

timster
02-26-2007, 05:27 PM
I think the key thing to remember about the results shown in the dyno plots is that the engine was brought up to operating temps both before and after installing the spacer. This makes sense because if GSM did the before and after dynos with a cold engine, I doubt there would be much, if any difference in the HP and torque numbers.

Anyways, I will go ahead and order the spacer and see if my 0-60 times goes down

Goldengreek5
02-26-2007, 05:32 PM
So, I just ordered this online, and after I ordered it, I figured I'd call GSM. They dont have any in stock, the guy said they are a few days out from a shipment.:mad: :confused: :confused:

FastSRT8GC
02-26-2007, 05:34 PM
THEN WHY PROMOTE IT!!!!!! Maybe i will not order mine, OH wait its not available yet. MF's

timster
02-26-2007, 05:38 PM
WTF??!!

I ordered mine also...grrrrr

gerry_miranda
02-26-2007, 06:12 PM
How well does it match the ports. It seems to be larger. Would than not cause flow disturbance?

MatFab
02-26-2007, 06:28 PM
How well does it match the ports. It seems to be larger. Would than not cause flow disturbance?

if your that concerned you should be porting your manifold anyways... does the stock stuff match up exactly? i haven't looked

BuilderBill
02-26-2007, 06:48 PM
So, I just ordered this online, and after I ordered it, I figured I'd call GSM. They dont have any in stock, the guy said they are a few days out from a shipment.:mad: :confused: :confused:
So damn typical and frustrating dealing with them. After the last stuff (fan mod crap) I swore I would not buy anything from them again.

LOL That said, I will call tomorrow and get on the list.
Bill

gculver
02-26-2007, 10:06 PM
A dyno from a different site, weak before #'s, and the phenolic pull falls of quicker than does the stock #'s although they shortened the pull. I don't doubt the heat soak promise, but the overall dyno #'s . I dunno, I'm kinda with STU from the Hemi shop on the #'s http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=56004

FastSRT8GC
02-26-2007, 10:20 PM
I agree with some of the LX guys. Some of you older gear heads may be able to answer this.

Raising the intake would act like a Carb spacer. If i remember you will increase bottom end but lose top end or visa versa. Am i correct on this, could this be why they dont show the upper RPM's of the DYNO?

GotStroke?
02-26-2007, 11:35 PM
Runner length has a larger affect on the powerband of a motor than cross sectional area, diameter, plenum volume, etc. Longer runners equate to more power lower in the band, but cause the motor to die up top. Short runners lend themselves to more high rpm power but at the expense of area under the curve. This is why dual runner intakes are a big help to smaller displacement V8s, helping to mask the lack of displacement.
With that being said, the greater the displacement, the less runner the motor needs to retain bottom end.
From looking at the pics of the GS phenolic spacers, they really don't look like they add much length to the runner at all, but if anything we need shorter runners.

HoustonSRT-8
02-27-2007, 08:34 AM
Yeah, I don't think this spacer makes enough of a difference to worry about loss of top end power due to the increased runner length.

BTW, I like how my questions have been answered from post #2.......

whiskey
02-27-2007, 01:06 PM
Yeah, I don't think this spacer makes enough of a difference to worry about loss of top end power due to the increased runner length.

BTW, I like how my questions have been answered from post #2.......


You mean,
How thick is the spacer?

I agree.

How thick is the spacer?

gculver
02-27-2007, 01:17 PM
The 1/4" spacer will not effect the mounting of anything. The Map sensor is on the back along with booster vacuum hose, on the front is the TB, Thats all. The only thing that would move ,would be the EVAC hose(hard plastic hose on drivers side, behind TB) and the TB. There only moving about 1/4" up.

whiskey
02-27-2007, 01:35 PM
You mean,
How thick is the spacer?

I agree.

How thick is the spacer?


From another forum, Ryan at GS says 1/4"

HoustonSRT-8
02-27-2007, 01:55 PM
From another forum, Ryan at GS says 1/4"
Wow, only ¼"? I was expecting ½".

whiskey
02-27-2007, 02:20 PM
So was I.....

Cdog
02-27-2007, 02:48 PM
I agree with some of the LX guys. Some of you older gear heads may be able to answer this.

Raising the intake would act like a Carb spacer. If i remember you will increase bottom end but lose top end or visa versa. Am i correct on this, could this be why they dont show the upper RPM's of the DYNO?

Yes, adding a taller intake should bump HP at the expense of torque. You carb guys will know that hi-rise manifolds are better for HP, carb spacers do the same thing....But carb spacers are big, like 1". Not 1/4". I've never worked with injection, but maybe 1/4" is all it takes to move the curves around with injection.

They say "these spacers are a super high heat (700 degree) thermal spacer that installs between the manifold and the cylinder head to keep the intake manifold from absorbing the heat, thus heating the intake charge and losing power." IMHO, I don't think these spacers would even do that. Certainly you could easily measure the intake temp. Maybe if you had a whole intercooler setup, you could lower the intake charge temp, but not from a spacer gasket.

If I had to guess, I would guess these spacers have very little effect on HP. Certainly not 18 HP. Maybe 1 HP from lengthening the intake run. These are just my opinion.

whiskey
02-27-2007, 02:50 PM
How closely do you think the phenolic spacer is port matched to the intake/heads?

GotStroke?
02-27-2007, 02:59 PM
Yes, adding a taller intake should bump HP at the expense of torque. You carb guys will know that hi-rise manifolds are better for HP, carb spacers do the same thing....But carb spacers are big, like 1". Not 1/4". I've never worked with injection, but maybe 1/4" is all it takes to move the curves around with injection.

1/4" is not going to do anything.

They say "these spacers are a super high heat (700 degree) thermal spacer that installs between the manifold and the cylinder head to keep the intake manifold from absorbing the heat, thus heating the intake charge and losing power." IMHO, I don't think these spacers would even do that. Certainly you could easily measure the intake temp. Maybe if you had a whole intercooler setup, you could lower the intake charge temp, but not from a spacer gasket.

Agreed, again the air doesn't spend enough time in the manifold to heat up. We're talking a fraction of a second at a time.

If I had to guess, I would guess these spacers have very little effect on HP. Certainly not 18 HP. Maybe 1 HP from lengthening the intake run. These are just my opinion.

Longer runners have the opposite effect, they reduce HP and increase TQ.

GotStroke?
02-27-2007, 03:00 PM
How closely do you think the phenolic spacer is port matched to the intake/heads?


You can see from the pics.

Cdog
02-27-2007, 06:15 PM
Longer runners have the opposite effect, they reduce HP and increase TQ.

Yes, I stand corrected.

Quote from a Mustang Forum "One thing that the phenolic spacers are really good for is allowing to keep the upper intake a bit cooler. OTOH, if you put a phenolic spacer on a stock intake, it will lengthen the path of the runners, which in turn raises the torque level, but also chokes off a bit of the upper rpm power. This is the reason why the "breadbox" type intakes work good at the extreme upper rpm ranges (6000 rpm up), they have a very short runner design."

My research has also found that the big (1") carb spacers can add HP or add Torque, depending on the spacer design. But still 1/4" isnt enough. Nice article: http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/carburetor_spacers/

***FWIW, there seem to be a number of posts touting the effectiveness of phenolic spacers around the net, so perhaps there is a significant effect.

FastSRT8GC
02-27-2007, 07:21 PM
It must be big enough to do something. Why would GS not show the entire RPM range. You would think with those #'s it would easily have gains across the board. JMO

This Phenolic smells PHISSHY!!!!

gculver
02-27-2007, 08:10 PM
That means for every 1/8", thats 10.15 hp and 11.81 ftlbs of torque. I'll take 3 sets. That should do it, 91.32 hp and 106.3 ftlbs of torque, WOW:D Just Kiddin!!

GSM
02-27-2007, 08:19 PM
The spacers are 1/4" thick.

We showed very conclusive test results.


put aside the hp and tq numbers, look at the back to back to back hot lap dyno run we posted were the engine made more power on the "HOT" runs that is by far the most impressive stat.

This never happens, the manifold would get heat soaked and every SRT prior would always show lower numbers on the second and third runs .

Scott

GS Motorsports
562.777.1075

timster
02-27-2007, 09:33 PM
lets see some back to back dyno graphs of an srt8 without the spacers

BuilderBill
02-27-2007, 10:31 PM
That means for every 1/8", thats 10.15 hp and 11.81 ftlbs of torque. I'll take 3 sets. That should do it, 91.32 hp and 106.3 ftlbs of torque, WOW:D Just Kiddin!!
Damn, I only ordered 1 set today, I need another 2 or three to catch up with you guys. LOL.
Bill

gculver
02-28-2007, 08:16 AM
Damn, I only ordered 1 set today, I need another 2 or three to catch up with you guys. LOL.
Bill
Bill , I think there is a limit, only 2 sets per car, anymore than that and the half shafts could'nt handle the increase torque. I dunno, but I love bolt-ons. If I keep this up, I'll need a ford 9", fuel cell, safety harness and other goodies to make it NHRA legal.LOL:D

Goldengreek5
02-28-2007, 08:25 AM
I know first hand about the heat soak issue with the Srt8's. When I first got my Jeep, took it to the track with under 1000 miles on it. Ran consistent
13.5's. Went to the track a month later, Jeep was running very hot. I couldn't break 13.95. Ran 3 times. 13.99-13.95. I didnt know about the heat soak issue, and was ready to sell my Jeep cause of the slower times. Almost half a second slower :eek: I dont care if this shows no horsepower gains at all, but if it solves the heat soak issue, I'm all over it.:D

gculver
02-28-2007, 08:43 AM
I know first hand about the heat soak issue with the Srt8's. When I first got my Jeep, took it to the track with under 1000 miles on it. Ran consistent
13.5's. Went to the track a month later, Jeep was running very hot. I couldn't break 13.95. Ran 3 times. 13.99-13.95. I didnt know about the heat soak issue, and was ready to sell my Jeep cause of the slower times. Almost half a second slower :eek: I dont care if this shows no horsepower gains at all, but if it solves the heat soak issue, I'm all over it.:D
Yes, I do too. 12.98@105.3 @ 60* in texas. Just havin some laughs.:D

gerry_miranda
02-28-2007, 08:55 AM
I know first hand about the heat soak issue with the Srt8's. When I first got my Jeep, took it to the track with under 1000 miles on it. Ran consistent
13.5's. Went to the track a month later, Jeep was running very hot. I couldn't break 13.95. Ran 3 times. 13.99-13.95. I didnt know about the heat soak issue, and was ready to sell my Jeep cause of the slower times. Almost half a second slower :eek: I dont care if this shows no horsepower gains at all, but if it solves the heat soak issue, I'm all over it.:D


Its good if it cures the heat loss and prevents power loss, but does it kill the power up top? The baseline DYNO was cut off at 5500 rpm...why?

gculver
02-28-2007, 08:57 AM
Its good if it cures the heat loss and prevents power loss, but does it kill the power up top? The baseline DYNO was cut off at 5500 rpm...why?
You are very perceptive!

GSM
02-28-2007, 04:18 PM
we did not see that till after we had installed the spacers , so we will run a test in the next few days on another vehicle.


That being said I think that the numbers aside, the hot lap dyno graph with 3 back to back to back dyno's with not only "no loss" but an actual gain on the 2nd and 3rd run is were the real beauty is.


fact these motors get hot and lose power period.




Scott

GS Motorsports
562.777.1075

BuilderBill
02-28-2007, 04:41 PM
we did not see that till after we had installed the spacers , so we will run a test in the next few days on another vehicle.


That being said I think that the numbers aside, the hot lap dyno graph with 3 back to back to back dyno's with not only "no loss" but an actual gain on the 2nd and 3rd run is were the real beauty is.


fact these motors get hot and lose power period.




Scott

GS Motorsports
562.777.1075
I just spoke with Ryan and GSM is next daying (when they arrive to GSM) the spacers to me so I can do a back to back comparison later next week when I rent Rockingham for a full day. I will also see how the 2600 converter from Mopar Super Center (being installed this Friday) works. We will see one way or another. My guess is that the spacers will make a negligible improvement but I am keeping an open mind!
Bill

gculver
02-28-2007, 06:24 PM
Scott, I certainly meant no disrespect to GSM's efforts in anyway, but the before & after Dyno pulls do look suspect. I applaud all vendors whose efforts are genuine with regards to product information, real data, prompt service and above all, customer service. I hope all goes well with this product and I might try a set in a few weeks. Greg :)

GSM
02-28-2007, 09:14 PM
Hey Gregg,


No disrespect taken, and I wish we would have caught the 5500 rpm limit on the before dyno's...my bad it was sunday and I was a little beat from the week and we were all excited to get the testing done.

The fact is everyone that drives there srt can attest to how much faster there vehicle is when its cold vs warm vs hot...


We will supply another test as soon as we get back from racing this weekend in AZ at the get together out there.

Scott