hi all,
hope someone can help me here, i have tried a search already and found some info regarding a sound delay through the factory system,
i have installed a system in my friend/customer's 07srt8,
nice friggin jeep by the way, you guys must love your rides, wish i had one myslef,

anyways, we installed a eclipse sw9122 12" and a soundstream 1500d to his factory navi deck, used a hilevel converter taken from the factory amp in the back tapped into the rear speaker wires...

the custoymer is complaining that the bass notes are hiting late, just by a milisecond or 2, and is wondering what i can do,
and i am also wondering the same,
can anyone help??

thanks, and cheers,

John

What type of LOC did you use? If it was something cheap like the SVEN 2 or SVEN4 you might want to change it out to something like an Audio Control unit (LC4 or LC6 give future upgrade possibilities with less expense) Also, did you grab signal before or after the factory amp?

hi all,
hope someone can help me here, i have tried a search already and found some info regarding a sound delay through the factory system,
i have installed a system in my friend/customer's 07srt8,
nice friggin jeep by the way, you guys must love your rides, wish i had one myslef,

anyways, we installed a eclipse sw9122 12" and a soundstream 1500d to his factory navi deck, used a hilevel converter taken from the factory amp in the back tapped into the rear speaker wires...

the custoymer is complaining that the bass notes are hiting late, just by a milisecond or 2, and is wondering what i can do,
and i am also wondering the same,
can anyone help??

thanks, and cheers,

John

Although I do not know why you're having this problem. You might want to check the phase on the sub or try throwing it 180 out of phase if it is not already. The amp may have a phase switch and if it doesn't you can swap the +/- at the speaker or amp termination. This is not a fix for your problem but it may actually lessen the the delay of the sub (it may make it worse) but it is a super quick check.

Good luck.

Hello guys, thank you for the response and the help,
the hi level converter is tapped on to the rear speaker wires, output from the amp, it is just a regular LOC not a highend one or anything,

se7en i will try to switch the phase, the amp does have a phase 180 switch...

but i was reading on another thread, cherokeesrt8.com/forums/showthread.php?t=555&highlight=amp+delay
aeoart is saying that there is a timing delay to some of the speakers, i was wondeirng if this can be what is making the problem?

i will try switching the phase, but would that even help the problem ??
thanks again,

John

Hello guys, thank you for the response and the help,
the hi level converter is tapped on to the rear speaker wires, output from the amp, it is just a regular LOC not a highend one or anything,

se7en i will try to switch the phase, the amp does have a phase 180 switch...

but i was reading on another thread, cherokeesrt8.com/forums/showthread.php?t=555&highlight=amp+delay
aeoart is saying that there is a timing delay to some of the speakers, i was wondeirng if this can be what is making the problem?

i will try switching the phase, but would that even help the problem ??
thanks again,

John

John,

Phase = Time and is the only "analog" way of controlling delay. This is why most home sub setups allow full 0-180 degrees of phase control (nob not a switch). Typically in automotive installs (especially SUVs) people will fire the sub directly into the back of the trunk or rear hatch. The advantage of this is +3db gain for at the first point of reflection but it also generally means that the sub is firing out of phase 180 degrees.

All of this said your problem may in fact be due to digital delay caused by the OEM DSP (guys does the jeep have one?). I expect that the best you will be able to achieve using phase allignment is about .5 ms of delay. Try it out and see if it helps.

-7

If the rear speakers were to have slightly different "timing" than the front ones, it would be that the rears were "ahead" of the fronts, not "delayed" (in order for the sound from both sets to reach the driver's ears at the same time). It's possible that the distance traveled by the bass is far enough to be noticeable (I notice it on my setup), as the bass is probably traveling to the back of the vehicle then forward (rear facing sub assumed).

If the rear speakers were to have slightly different "timing" than the front ones, it would be that the rears were "ahead" of the fronts, not "delayed" (in order for the sound from both sets to reach the driver's ears at the same time). It's possible that the distance traveled by the bass is far enough to be noticeable (I notice it on my setup), as the bass is probably traveling to the back of the vehicle then forward (rear facing sub assumed).

Redshift is absolutely correct. If anything was going to be delayed it would be the fronts or whichever driver is closest to the listening position. In theory if the the listening position was also the driving position all speakers in the car would (should) be delayed to arrive at the listener at the same time as the speaker that is farthest away (in that case it would probably be the passenger side door) and the speaker to get the greatest delay would be the drivers side front door.

All of this said the Jeep system doesn't sound very phase/time correct (to my ears at least), although it does sort of provide a front stage.

THE Sub is rear facing,
The JEEP ISN'T THAT BIG that you would notice the delay though, is it????

Does anyone have any other suggestion, or is there any way to change the timing,??
I dont want to open the whole back again to change the hi level converter... darn, and the customer is very unhappy right now about it

THE Sub is rear facing,
The JEEP ISN'T THAT BIG that you would notice the delay though, is it????

Does anyone have any other suggestion, or is there any way to change the timing,??
I dont want to open the whole back again to change the hi level converter... darn, and the customer is very unhappy right now about it

I'm assuming at this point that you had no luck with phase adjustment. Also for clarification you're saying that the sub seems to playing "behind" the rest of the system? Also, is this something that "you" can hear as well? Can you give any more info? If the sub seems to be playing behind the rest of the system then the solution per the posts above is to delay the rest of the system, not the sub.

There are a couple of things that could be done but most would require additional equipment purchases (most of which do not fall into the cheap category).

If more info is available regarding the install please let us know. Where do you have the crossover set to? What slope (if it is adjustable). How is the sound in general (Boomy, tight, etc.)?

I had another thought about this. You said the output of the stock amp is the input to the aftermarket amp. It takes time for the signal to travel through the amp(s) (as well as along the wires between them). Given that this sub is the only speaker going through 2 amps, instead of 1, I would suggest that is the problem.

Basically, for audiophile sound, you want to minimize everything between the head unit and speakers, be it active components, such as amps, or passive components such as wires. Everything between the head unit and the speakers adds noise (and potentially other problems) to the system.

I had another thought about this. You said the output of the stock amp is the input to the aftermarket amp. It takes time for the signal to travel through the amp(s) (as well as along the wires between them). Given that this sub is the only speaker going through 2 amps, instead of 1, I would suggest that is the problem.

Basically, for audiophile sound, you want to minimize everything between the head unit and speakers, be it active components, such as amps, or passive components such as wires. Everything between the head unit and the speakers adds noise (and potentially other problems) to the system.

Interesting. I wonder if he would be able to tap the line prior to the amp....

I'm assuming at this point that you had no luck with phase adjustment. Also for clarification you're saying that the sub seems to playing "behind" the rest of the system? Also, is this something that "you" can hear as well? Can you give any more info? If the sub seems to be playing behind the rest of the system then the solution per the posts above is to delay the rest of the system, not the sub.

There are a couple of things that could be done but most would require additional equipment purchases (most of which do not fall into the cheap category).

If more info is available regarding the install please let us know. Where do you have the crossover set to? What slope (if it is adjustable). How is the sound in general (Boomy, tight, etc.)?


HI GUYS,
thanks for the suggestions,

now i just speak with the customer, and he is telling me the REAR speakers ARE delayed over the fronts, that is causing the delay in the sub. He says you can CLEARLY hear that the rears are later than the fronts, I haven't heard it but he said it is very obvious that the backs are delayed. Now, after double reading the thread, you guys are saying it is the FRONTS that should be delayed??? Is there any way to change any of these settings through the deck?? Is this Dsp built into the amp??

Here is the complete info for the setup:
soundstream PCA1500d connected to rear speaker output from factory amp
set to 50hz, regular phase
eclipse sw9122 12" sub dual 4 dropped to 2 in sealed box
gains are not set too high

now,
red, you suggesting tapping before the amp? does anyone have any info regarding this??
i am reffering to another thread i saw by another member here, he has a custom setup in his trunk, and he shows pics of tapping into the rear speakers output which is what i do with most factory systems and is never been a problem.
does anyone have any other suggestioN??


thank you all,
cheers

John

And yes se7en, the sub is clearly behind the rest of the system, the customer can hear it especially on fast paced beats (dance/house etc) he played a few tracks for me and it is really behind.

on other songs though it is not so bad, but he is not quite so happy.

From what I'm told, the JL Audio CleanSweep corrects (via a cailibration CD) any factory headunit/amp issues and also provides an 8 volt out to aftermarket amps. I've been told by a local installer who works for a high end place, that this is the way to go with the Jeep SRT8 headunit/nav deck.

Have you tried swapping out the amp to make sure there isn't an issue with it? Also, is the amp getting the adequate power from the battery? Are the postive/negative leads to the speakers correct? Just thinking of anything possible that might cause a delay.

does the customer have the navigation headunit? If so, I think there is a spacializer EQ where you can choose to optimize the audio for the driver, or front, or rear passengers. Try messing with that by going into the setup menu, it might be set to something odd.
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do you know how to access this spaciliazer eq????

anyone? the truck is here now, all i can access is the bass/mid/high and the fader fr/back l/r.

thanks,

anyone? the truck is here now, all i can access is the bass/mid/high and the fader fr/back l/r.

thanks,

Those are the only settings I'm aware of.

If he's hearing the rears behind the fronts, then either:
A) he has extremely audiophile quality hearing, and can tell the difference caused by the time it takes the sound to travel to the ears from the various speaker locations OR/AND
B) there is something wrong with the system.

Neither of those really change what I said that the sub amp should be driven by the signal out of the head unit, but unfortunately I can't help you with that. Do you have access to a service manual? The option of the CleanSweep is a good idea (it should allow you to fix all the problems), although not cheap.

Also, those Eclipse titanium subs are HEAVY... are you sure there's enough power there to drive them properly in a sealed setup? (Please don't take offense at this question, just checking)
Upon looking up that amp, it looks like you need one of those amps for each of those subs. Eclipse subs are very power hungry. I had 2 aluminums DVCs in a sealed enclosure once upon a time.

sorry it was another car I was just driving that had the spacializer settings, I couldn't find any special settings on the Jeep.

Did you try feeding a pure signal into the amp? For example, using a splitter connect an ipod to a pair of headphones and to the amp/sub in the car.
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That's a really good idea idealrides. Try to use the same songs that you could hear the problem on.

This is a little late but found this on WKJeeps which may be related to this issue.

At the New York International Auto Show on April 8th, 2004, Boston Acoustics, Inc. revealed the all-new 2005 Jeep® Grand Cherokee as the third vehicle line in its original automotive OEM program with the Chrysler Group. The premier audio solutions manufacturer will provide high performance sound systems for Jeep Grand Cherokee. Beginning in the fall of 2004, custom designed, engineered and equalized Boston Acoustics audio systems will be available as factory installed or upgrade options across the Jeep Grand Cherokee family of vehicles.

The systems combine Boston Acoustics' high-quality, high performance speakers and Digital Signal Processing (DSP) technology. Together they deliver clean, clear sound and the smooth octave-to-octave tonal balance, known as the legendary "Boston Sound." Jeep Grand Cherokee will feature a 6-speaker configuration powered by a 280-watt DSP amplifier.

The MACH® Digital Signal Processing (DSP) System enhances reception performance and optimizes a vehicle's listening environment using sound equalization and audio delays. Visteon customizes this control for individual vehicles to provide the most favorable acoustic environment. Via variable noise- and interference-reducing filters, MACH DSP provides an audio system that adapts continuously to maximize reception conditions.

HI ALL,

thanks for the suggestions,
I have not yet tried to connect it to the preamp signal from the deck as I cannot get any wiring info and there are a million wires there that I dont want to test :S
But I have also read that it is a digital signal from the deck to the amp so that may not even work, the customer is not too unhappy about it so we may just leave it for now. Thank you all again for the help, if anyone does come up with any further info that would be greatly appreciated,

Cheers

John

HI ALL,

thanks for the suggestions,
I have not yet tried to connect it to the preamp signal from the deck as I cannot get any wiring info and there are a million wires there that I dont want to test :S
But I have also read that it is a digital signal from the deck to the amp so that may not even work, the customer is not too unhappy about it so we may just leave it for now. Thank you all again for the help, if anyone does come up with any further info that would be greatly appreciated,

Cheers

John

Does this help?

WK radio pinouts

Radio Connector C1

Cavity Wire color Function
1 Red / Orange FUSED B(+)
2 - - - -
3 - - - -
4 Dark Green / Orange (HANDS FREE) LEFT AUDIO OUTPUT
5 White / Orange CAN B BUS (+)
6 White CAN B BUS (-)
7 Gray RIGHT FRONT DOOR SPEAKER (+)
8 Gray / Brown RIGHT FRONT DOOR SPEAKER (-)
9 Dark Green / Brown LEFT FRONT DOOR SPEAKER (-)
10 Dark Green LEFT FRONT DOOR SPEAKER (+)
11 Black GROUND
12 Red / Orange FUSED B(+)
13 - - - -
14 - - - -
15 RADIO MUTE
16 Dark Green / Yellow (HANDS FREE) RIGHT AUDIO OUTPUT
17 Dark Green (HANDS FREE) COMMON AUDIO OUTPUT
18 Dark Green / Dark Blue RADIO LEFT AUDIO (+)
19 Dark Green / Violet RADIO LEFT AUDIO (-)
20 Gray / Tan RADIO RIGHT AUDIO (-)
21 Gray / Dark Blue RADIO RIGHT AUDIO (+)
22 Black GROUND

Radio Connector C2

Cavity Wire color Function
1 Dark Green / Yellow
(except hands-free) AUDIO SIGNAL RIGHT (+)
2 Dark Green
(except hands-free) AUDIO SIGNAL COMMON
3 - - - -
4 Dark Green / Light Blue
(DVD) RIGHT AUDIO AUX
5 Gray / Orange
(DVD) AUDIO OUT GROUND
6 Dark Green / Orange
(except satellite radio) AUDIO SIGNAL LEFT (+)
6 Dark Green / Light Blue
(satellite radio) AUDIO SIGNAL LEFT (+)
7 Gray / Dark Green
(DVD) AUX AUDIO RETURN COMMON
8 Gray / Dark Green
(DVD) LEFT AUDIO AUX
9 Gray / Light Blue
(DVD) LEFT AUDIO AUX
10 Gray / Dark Blue
(DVD) RIGHT AUDIO AUX


It's from: http://www.wkjeeps.com/wk_nav.htm

Try taking the hi-level signal from one of the fronts if possible. Perhaps that will solve the issue.

You can't take the pre-amp signa and run that to the subl, as it wont be volume controlled. So that doesnt work...