And you thought you were confused before....LOL

My take on the TC motor:
* It "Parks" in a position of engaged clutches....where the 1st long line is in the photo (the left side in the photo).
* You start the Jeep and it rotates CCW...WTH...AWAY from clutch engagement!!
*Push the TC button (Yellow dash light on) it rotates FURTHER CCW. WTH???:confused:

This means that when we push in the TC button, the front drive is disengaged????? Hmmm....something to ask the Engineers in the next chat.

Obviously, the 20.5 mph "check" engages the clutches and stops there.
Mary would NOT ride below the Jeep and watch at 20.5 mph and verify this though.:eek:

I guess my thought had been that when the TC button was pushed, the clutches were further engaged.
Therefore, more noise (especially transfer case and front diff noise) was transmitted.
Could I have been totally incorrect and the noise from the transfer case when the button is pushed, actually the clutches are being disengaged and loose in there??:confused:

For the record, I have driven for hundreds of miles with the TC button pushed,
of course I did change out my transfer case to one of the High Torque Capacity versions.

How's this for some further reading....

ALL-SPEED TRACTION CONTROL
Traction control systems sense impending wheel spin based on a model of the rate of change of wheel speed under
normal traction conditions. The All-Speed Traction Control uses signals from the same wheel speed sensors as ABS
to determine when to apply the brakes to one or more wheels and when to reduce engine torque output using the
electronic throttle control (ETC) to prevent wheel slip during acceleration. Throttle control makes the vehicle less
reliant on brake application alone to maintain traction, increasing the operating speed range and more closely modulates
speed, resulting in smoother operation. With All-Speed Traction Control reducing engine torque as well as
applying the brakes, it is possible to achieve almost seamless torque application at the wheels.
If the wheel slip is severe enough to require throttle intervention, All-Speed Traction Control will reduce engine
torque and sometimes upshift the transmission to avoid the condition. In milliseconds, All-Speed Traction Control
interrogates the engine control system to determine the current torque output, determines how much the torque
output the current conditions will allow, and signals this requirement to the engine control system, which reduces the
torque by partially closing the throttle. With execution of the torque reduction, the brake system reduces brake pres-
WK BRAKES - ABS - SERVICE INFORMATION 5 - 343
sure to make the transition smooth, while maintaining forward progress. By reducing engine power, braking effectiveness
is maintained and the system can operate throughout the normal vehicle speed range. That is why the
system is identified as providing “all-speed” traction control.
With AWD, where front-wheel slip can occur, the degree of throttle intervention is relatively less than with rear-wheel
drive. The difference in speed capability and the degree of throttle intervention between rear-wheel drive and allwheel
drive is due to the fact that non-driven front wheels on a rear-wheel drive vehicle give the system an accurate
vehicle speed reference on which to base responses. With AWD, the possibility that the front wheels may also be
slipping makes appropriate corrective action more difficult to determine, thus limiting the effective speed range. Offsetting
this is the fact that loss of traction is less likely with AWD because torque is transmitted through all four
wheels to begin with. In actual driving situations on snow or ice, the rear-wheel drive and AWD systems respond in
essentially the same way up to the 45 mph (72 km/h) limit of the AWD system.
When severe wheel slippage is detected (as on snow-covered roads), the Winter Mode feature of All-Speed Traction
Control causes the transmission to up-shift to higher gears at lower speeds than normal. Once a slippery launch
condition is detected, the transmission will remain in Winter Mode for a minimum of three minutes. After that, if the
road is providing normal traction, the system returns to providing normal up-shifts.


Winston....could your rig think it is spinning and in Winter mode for 3 minutes?

I know, lots to digest....it looks more like a Winston post...LOL
Bill

Where was that out of BBilly boy?:D

Didn't the engineers tell us way back when in an old chat to keep from spinning off the line in water, hit the TC button?

No wonder i picked up 2 tenths with TC off, lmao! Yeah the engineers have ignored my request to get technical into what exactly happens when the T/C button is pushed, where the noise comes from, and why Chrysler is having across-the-board TCase failures.

Bill the further disengagement of the Tcase clutch pack makes sense if the following is true: By further losening the clutches (we both know that the clutches are never fully disengaged), this would allow more slippage, and inherently more noise... and more wear! Which would explain both the vibrations, sound, and clutch failures.

But the big question would be WHY? Losening-up of the TC clutch pack would create more wheel slippage prior to clutch engagement via the AWD system. So why would you want more torque going rear that forward??

Dont really know, but Chrysler reccomends pushing the button in snow. Would the idea be to transmit more torque to the rear end, making it break free with LESS force, thus EARLIER, thus the ABS-based traction control algarythem would have more time to engage the front axel at much lower speeds, at much lower torque levels. This might make sense in snow or ice.. better to be slipping, pulling throttle, and applying brakes at 200ftlbs (prior to frictional break-free) than 300ftlbs.

Just thinking outside the box. I await your full report. PS, I'll just drop my jeep off at your shop for further research.

No wonder i picked up 2 tenths with TC off, lmao! Yeah the engineers have ignored my request to get technical into what exactly happens when the T/C button is pushed, where the noise comes from, and why Chrysler is having across-the-board TCase failures.

Bill the further disengagement of the Tcase clutch pack makes sense if the following is true: By further losening the clutches (we both know that the clutches are never fully disengaged), this would allow more slippage, and inherently more noise... and more wear! Which would explain both the vibrations, sound, and clutch failures.

But the big question would be WHY? Losening-up of the TC clutch pack would create more wheel slippage prior to clutch engagement via the AWD system. So why would you want more torque going rear that forward??

Dont really know, but Chrysler reccomends pushing the button in snow. Would the idea be to transmit more torque to the rear end, making it break free with LESS force, thus EARLIER, thus the ABS-based traction control algarythem would have more time to engage the front axel at much lower speeds, at much lower torque levels. This might make sense in snow or ice.. better to be slipping, pulling throttle, and applying brakes at 200ftlbs (prior to frictional break-free) than 300ftlbs.

Just thinking outside the box. I await your full report. PS, I'll just drop my jeep off at your shop for further research.

You musy be bored with alot of time to think Winston! :lol: Still trying to stay out of DC until the inauguration is over?:eek:

No wonder i picked up 2 tenths with TC off, lmao! Yeah the engineers have ignored my request to get technical into what exactly happens when the T/C button is pushed, where the noise comes from, and why Chrysler is having across-the-board TCase failures.

Bill the further disengagement of the Tcase clutch pack makes sense if the following is true: By further losening the clutches (we both know that the clutches are never fully disengaged), this would allow more slippage, and inherently more noise... and more wear! Which would explain both the vibrations, sound, and clutch failures.

But the big question would be WHY? Losening-up of the TC clutch pack would create more wheel slippage prior to clutch engagement via the AWD system. So why would you want more torque going rear that forward??

Dont really know, but Chrysler reccomends pushing the button in snow. Would the idea be to transmit more torque to the rear end, making it break free with LESS force, thus EARLIER, thus the ABS-based traction control algarythem would have more time to engage the front axel at much lower speeds, at much lower torque levels. This might make sense in snow or ice.. better to be slipping, pulling throttle, and applying brakes at 200ftlbs (prior to frictional break-free) than 300ftlbs.

Just thinking outside the box. I await your full report. PS, I'll just drop my jeep off at your shop for further research.


Yeah Winston,
It gets MORE confusing the more we research.
I would have thought in snow to push the button and ENGAGE the front tires more.
Actually it seems to NOT push the button in snow and keep the front tires at maximum engagement.

I'm thinking at the track with a rig like yours, pull the ABS fuse and let her rip.
The ARB locker should be fine and at least you have 3 wheels digging in.:confused::confused:
Friggen trial and error.
Bill

Yeah Winston,
It gets MORE confusing the more we research.
I would have thought in snow to push the button and ENGAGE the front tires more.
Actually it seems to NOT push the button in snow and keep the front tires at maximum engagement.

I'm thinking at the track with a rig like yours, pull the ABS fuse and let her rip.
The ARB locker should be fine and at least you have 3 wheels digging in.:confused::confused:
Friggen trial and error.
Bill

Now I'm curios what happens when the fuse is pulled. :confused:

I have my fuse switched and usually flip it at the track, always seemed to net me gains

Yeah Winston,
It gets MORE confusing the more we research.
I would have thought in snow to push the button and ENGAGE the front tires more.
Actually it seems to NOT push the button in snow and keep the front tires at maximum engagement.

I'm thinking at the track with a rig like yours, pull the ABS fuse and let her rip.
The ARB locker should be fine and at least you have 3 wheels digging in.:confused::confused:
Friggen trial and error.
Bill

I have minor wheel slippage with a good launch from 2800rpm or higher, I can hear it chriping through the tires finding traction, but strangely, its not 'off the line', its right before the 1-2 shift, making me think that its a function of the turbo coming into the powerband. I just push the button, never pulled the ABS fuse, but worth a try.

With the ABS pulled is AWD still working?

Right now focused more on tuning issues, also want to know why my boost controller kept it at 10psi all the way to the 990 mark... gotta be able to read japanese to figure one of those dang things out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc1jqRgkLkQ

I have minor wheel slippage with a good launch from 2800rpm or higher, I can hear it chriping through the tires finding traction, but strangely, its not 'off the line', its right before the 1-2 shift, making me think that its a function of the turbo coming into the powerband. I just push the button, never pulled the ABS fuse, but worth a try.

With the ABS pulled is AWD still working?

Right now focused more on tuning issues, also want to know why my boost controller kept it at 10psi all the way to the 990 mark... gotta be able to read japanese to figure one of those dang things out.
YES, the front wheels pull with the ABS fuse removed.
Probably eliminates the "torque management" also.

BUT if you have not hit the 20.5 mph after you turned off the Jeep, it now seems the transfer case is NOT engaged.

Let me know the next time you are running the Rig and if I am free we can try some of this stuff.
Bill

I loved that run. Nothing like giving someone a 2 second head start and running them down!! Any chance you can load my run from Heather?

Bill the way the TC button is wired is directly to the ABS module, the original design was to desensitise the ESP/Traction control (the lock the opposite brake mode)
Now if the transfer case is getting a message, it's directly from the Can Bus from ABS module to the Final Drive Control Module.
And I don't know a thing about that yet.

BTW there is no "Winter Mode" for the Jeep. that was for the LX, Crossfire and some Sprinter vans. It's a higher reverse (manual shaft mode rather than engaging the shift valve)

EDIT the maybe a Winter Mode in the Jeep TCM/ABS algorithm but I haven't found it yet

I found a little more, notice the bold print..

DESCRIPTION


The NV146 transfer case provides On-Demand Active Four-Wheel Drive for optimum traction in a wide range of conditions and is also used in the Grand Cherokee SRT8 vehicles. The transfer case uses an electronically controlled clutch pack to distribute between 0% and 50% of the available torque to the front axle. The NV146 electronics provide an active system because it can anticipate and prevent slip.

The NV146 single-speed transfer case provides the following benefits:

No shift lever or driver interaction required.
On-demand four-wheel drive provides smooth operation and vehicle stability under all conditions because torque is constantly being transferred.
Even torque distribution provides traction to maintain forward motion under most conditions.
The Brake Traction Control System (BTCS) works in tandem with on-demand four-wheel drive. BTCS provides resistance to any wheel that is slipping to allow additional torque transfer to wheels with traction. Robust design and improved sealing enhance reliability.


Seems like the FDCM will need to be hacked too

Course I already knew that :p