Head & Intake Comparison [Archive] - Cherokee SRT8 Forum

: Head & Intake Comparison


mabosc223
01-10-2007, 01:05 PM
Hi I am wondering if anyone has done comparison on the different heads offered for the 6.1L Hemi. Specifically the GS Motorsports Heads and the Power Ported Heads. I was just wondering which one is better if any. Or if they are pretty comparable. I know the Power Ported ones are a little cheaper, but price is not the concern. So any one that has some proof or opinions on the two please let me know, I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks Everyone!

SRT8
01-10-2007, 06:58 PM
I too would like to know more about the differences between the suppliers. I do know that some are hand ported & others are cnc ported. Lets get a list of the venders offering heads/intake/cams: PPP, GSM, Frank Racing, Dynamic, Heat, & TheHEMIShop.

Those who do strokers: PPP, TheHEMIShop,

GotStroke?
01-10-2007, 11:30 PM
Any reputable head porter can work wonders with a 6.1 head. By just looking at the brand specific guys you're missing out on the best in the business.

rainmaker
01-11-2007, 10:23 AM
Any reputable head porter can work wonders with a 6.1 head. By just looking at the brand specific guys you're missing out on the best in the business.


Okay "Gene", who is the best in the business?

FastMatt
01-11-2007, 01:34 PM
this thread may interest you

http://www.cherokeesrt8.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1817

GotStroke?
01-11-2007, 03:41 PM
Okay "Gene", who is the best in the business?

I'm not saying you should use any one specific porter, just that you need to broaden your scope to encompass more than just Hemi specific porters/builders.
Don't assume that the 6.1L Hemi was forged in the hands of Zeus. It's a 2v pushrod moderate displacement V8, guess what, they've been around for over 50 years. Do some homework to see who's done what in the world of motorsports. Start by checking out Reher Morrison, especially their tech talk section. You'll begin to see why porters like Heat/Ported Power have such dismal results, with pictures of port cross sections to help you understand exactly why, and explanations as to why valve jobs are as critical as they are.
I personally use a world class builder (Al Papitto, google him and see what you get) who makes 600rwhp from steel rod N/A 5.4L 4v Ford, 440rwhp from steel rod N/A 4.6s, 1500rwhp+ from twin turbo Ford GT/GT500s, has built world record holding NHRA ProStock bike/blown alcohol funny car engines, NMRA PS/FS/Renegade motors, ex F1 V8s, etc etc.
After I do H/C (Mid Feb) I will post results. I'm certain Al will make me more power (no disrespect to anyone else) than others are seeing with their H/C packages because again he is literally a world class builder--there are maybe a handful of guys in the country that could possibly duplicate his work/results, then again, maybe not.
If you don't want to wait, do some research and see what you come up with. It took me several years and tons of $ down the drain before I ran into Al and realized what I do now--90%+ of the aftermarket doesn't have a clue, they're just out to get your hard earned money.

rainmaker
01-11-2007, 04:15 PM
I'm not saying you should use any one specific porter, just that you need to broaden your scope to encompass more than just Hemi specific porters/builders.
Don't assume that the 6.1L Hemi was forged in the hands of Zeus. It's a 2v pushrod moderate displacement V8, guess what, they've been around for over 50 years. Do some homework to see who's done what in the world of motorsports. Start by checking out Reher Morrison.
I personally use a world class builder (Al Papitto, google him and see what you get) who makes 600rwhp from steel rod N/A 5.4L 4v Ford, 440rwhp from steel rod N/A 4.6s, 1500rwhp+ from twin turbo Ford GT/GT500s, has built world record holding NHRA ProStock bike/blown alcohol funny car engines, NMRA PS/FS/Renegade motors, ex F1 V8s, etc etc.
After I do H/C (Mid Feb) I will post results. I'm certain Al will make me more power (no disrespect to anyone else) than others are seeing with their H/C packages because again he is literally a world class builder--there are maybe a handful of guys in the country that could possibly duplicate his work/results, then again, maybe not.
If you don't want to wait, do some research and see what you come up with.

No disrespect, but I guess my point was if you're going to leave it open by saying something like "you're missing out on the best in the business...." that's not really helping much. Why even post that if it takes a second post to find out what you really mean?

Yes I know there are others out there, and not all porters are the same....but wasn't that the original question? (I didn't even ask it, I was just trying to help fish for more information...)

You also fail to mention that going the "professional" route tends to be more pricey and gains aren't that much more over the "non-professional" porters. For those guys who have a ton of money and want that extra 5-10 HP you're right, going with guys like Al Papitto is the way to go. But then again I've seen many guys go fast with "out of the box" style heads/port jobs too.

http://www.ls1speed.com/shopcar.cfm

995 RWHP / 8.93@153mph 370c.i. LS1 motor, iron block, stock crank, eagle connecting rods, and diamond pistons. Out of the box AFR 225 heads

Take it FWIW. Just trying to help everyone to make it a better community.

GotStroke?
01-11-2007, 05:00 PM
No disrespect, but I guess my point was if you're going to leave it open by saying something like "you're missing out on the best in the business...." that's not really helping much. Why even post that if it takes a second post to find out what you really mean?

Sorry you didn't get it. I'll try to spell it out more clearly for you next time. I left my post open since I didn't want anyone to think I was plugging one specific porter. From now on maybe you should do your own homework.


You also fail to mention that going the "professional" route tends to be more pricey and gains aren't that much more over the "non-professional" porters. For those guys who have a ton of money and want that extra 5-10 HP you're right, going with guys like Al Papitto is the way to go. But then again I've seen many guys go fast with "out of the box" style heads/port jobs too.

http://www.ls1speed.com/shopcar.cfm

995 RWHP / 8.93@153mph 370c.i. LS1 motor, iron block, stock crank, eagle connecting rods, and diamond pistons. Out of the box AFR 225 heads

Take it FWIW. Just trying to help everyone to make it a better community.

LMFAO that was one of the most ignorant posts I've ever read on the net. Letting anyone but a pro touch a set of cylinder heads is the worst mistake anyone can make. The avg. joe or even enthusiast doesn't have a damn clue how to make a set of heads flow better. I don't mean flow bench results because a sewer drainage pipe will flow 1000cfm with zero velocity. Quite often quality porters add as much material via weld/epoxy as they remove from other sections of heads.
The example you cited is USELESS, why? Because it's a forced induction motor. Forced induction is an outstanding band aid in compensating for shortcomings a motor may possess. You can hog the **** out of a set of heads used on a FI motor or even leave them stock because the blower/turbo creates the velocity/flow. Get it? Throw those heads on a N/A H/C motor and it will lift its leg to piss.
Finally, where do you get off saying a professional porter can only make 5-10hp more than a novice at much reduced cost? Where are some legit examples to cite reg. the differences in power made? Hint: There aren't any. Al makes 350HP from a 1.5L naturally aspirated 2v/SOHC small bore bike motor, even a "really really good" porter can't do that, let alone a nobody. LOL, when was the last time you called Al for a price quote? His pricing is industry standard, $750 for basic work (milling if applicable, Serdi 5 angle VJ with hand blend, short turn/bowl/exhaust work and assembly/disassembly), race porting is $1500 for more extensive porting plus the basic work. Those prices are for DOHC/4Vs so 2v stuff is also substantially cheaper since there are only half as many valves/seats to work. If you think that's too expensive, just remind yourself that anything worth a **** in this world costs money, you always get what you pay for.
The bottom line is that the potential HP any motor can make is in the cylinder head. Cam/intake determine how much of that potential is reached and where in the rpm band. When building a house you start with a solid foundation, in the case of a motor, the heads are the basement.
The best thing you or someone as blatantly ignorant as you can do for this forum is to not post when it comes to topics you don't have the first clue about. Crap/misinformation like you've just posted will do nothing but wrongfully distort the views of people that are truly trying to learn.
Anyone in the Ford camp knows that I've authored the most complete/comprehensive and accurate Modular head guide to date--it's actually 4 years old at this point but no one else has even bothered to better it. I plan on doing some in depth documentation with Al with the 6.1 heads when the time comes, simply because legitimate information on them is impossible to find at this point.
Sorry if I came off a little harsh but I hate misinformation, and I'm still sleep deprived from Vegas/Glendale.

Black_SRT8
01-11-2007, 05:46 PM
Can't wait to see the results, Andy. Keep us posted...

SRTJeep
01-11-2007, 06:23 PM
I just looked at the locally done heads, not 6.1. (They call them junk, wrong shaped intake ports, lack velocity because of their shape, and don't really make HP until way out of the RPM Band of the 6.1 Hemi.) They also modified the shape of the intake ports. They should be tested soon as the final mods were just done to them. Spendy, but if they work they will be worth it. As far as other versions go, I can't say but according to them the stock 6.1 heads can't be improved any just made more sluggish by porting. These heads are CNC machined with several size valve options. Different valves completely, better shaped that should really flow. (341" at .500 lift, intake) I saw the flow charts. They are mostly only Mopar Engine Builders but the head porter knows other engines as well. I'll post more later when this information is available. Gene

rainmaker
01-11-2007, 06:24 PM
Sorry you didn't get it. I'll try to spell it out more clearly for you next time. I left my post open since I didn't want anyone to think I was plugging one specific porter. From now on maybe you should do your own homework.




LMFAO that was one of the most ignorant posts I've ever read on the net. Letting anyone but a pro touch a set of cylinder heads is the worst mistake anyone can make. The avg. joe or even enthusiast doesn't have a damn clue how to make a set of heads flow better. I don't mean flow bench results because a sewer drainage pipe will flow 1000cfm with zero velocity. Quite often quality porters add as much material via weld/epoxy as they remove from other sections of heads.
The example you cited is USELESS, why? Because it's a forced induction motor. Forced induction is an outstanding band aid in compensating for shortcomings a motor may possess. You can hog the **** out of a set of heads used on a FI motor or even leave them stock because the blower/turbo creates the velocity/flow. Get it? Throw those heads on a N/A H/C motor and it will lift its leg to piss.
Finally, where do you get off saying a professional porter can only make 5-10hp more than a novice at much reduced cost? Where are some legit examples to cite reg. the differences in power made? Hint: There aren't any. LOL, when was the last time you called Al for a price quote? His pricing is industry standard, $750 for basic work (milling if applicable, Serdi 5 angle VJ with hand blend, short turn/bowl/exhaust work and assembly/disassembly), race porting is $1500 for more extensive porting plus the basic work. Those prices are for DOHC/4Vs so 2v stuff is also substantially cheaper since there are only half as many valves/seats to work. If you think that's too expensive, just remind yourself that anything worth a **** in this world costs money, you always get what you pay for.
The bottom line is that the potential HP any motor can make is in the cylinder head. Cam/intake determine how much of that potential is reached and where in the rpm band. When building a house you start with a solid foundation, in the case of a motor, the heads are the basement.
The best thing you or someone as blatantly ignorant as you can do for this forum is to not post when it comes to topics you don't have the first clue about. Crap/misinformation like you've just posted will do nothing but wrongfully distort the views of people that are truly trying to learn.
Anyone in the Ford camp knows that I've authored the most complete/comprehensive and accurate Modular head guide to date--it's actually 4 years old at this point but no one else has even bothered to better it. I plan on doing some in depth documentation with Al with the 6.1 heads when the time comes, simply because legitimate information on them is impossible to find at this point.
Sorry if I came off a little harsh but I hate misinformation, and I'm still sleep deprived from Vegas/Glendale.

Hahaha and everyone wonders why the TBSS guys think we're all a bunch of arrogant *******s....

I'm not going to play cyber-muscles with you Stroke, but who are you again?

You wanna talk about misinformation:

"Letting anyone but a pro touch a set of cylinder heads is the worst mistake anyone can make."

So your saying all the vendors on this site and anyone using a CNC machine is the worst mistake in the world? And that no one will make power by doing this? Guess all the dyno's in the world are lying to us then...

"LOL, when was the last time you called Al for a price quote? "

I haven't cause I'm not a sack hanger. But I guess I'd like to know what you're consider Indy Cylinder heads cause they do the porting for PPP. Are they "novices"? PPP's price for a set of heads is ~1200 bucks. And they are making good power across the whole RPM range. I can't wait to see what power you make with Al's ported heads alone...if you think you're getting more than 10 HP than what PPP's heads do you are crazy. But what do I know I didn't author the most complete/comprehensive and accurate Modular head guide to date...

I don't get you man. My point was don't post something unless it's going to provide help. Here we are 4 posts later and your an @ss. WTF is wrong with you?

SRT8
01-11-2007, 06:40 PM
this thread may interest you

http://www.cherokeesrt8.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1817
Do you have any custom ground cams available for the 6.1L? How much will your strokers be once released?

SRT8
01-11-2007, 07:05 PM
Here is a link to some info on Frank Racing:
http://www.lxforums.com/board/forumdisplay.php?f=171

Dynamic Racing:
www.dynamicracing.com

The HEMI Shop:
http://thehemishop.com/

FastMatt
01-11-2007, 07:09 PM
I can't say but according to them the stock 6.1 heads can't be improved any just made more sluggish by porting. Gene

lol what a load of crap.

Somebody could easily make that mistake when porting them (I have seen some heads by other venders and thatís exactly what thy did), but we donít.

The 6.1L heads can be vastly improved, if you do it correctly.

A gain of 65 ft/lb of TQ at the wheels at 2500rpm is not a "sluggish" head lol.

You know what thy say about opinionsÖ. Explicitly when thy come from ďunnamedĒ people 2nd hand, then get posted 2nd (or is it 3rd hand) on a board on the internetÖ

FastMatt
01-11-2007, 07:12 PM
Do you have any custom ground cams available for the 6.1L? How much will your strokers be once released?

I can have any cam you want ground, as well as offer cams from KRC and Frank racing if you like any of thereís.

As for strokers, I will not have any pricing till we release them, I donít like to play the "pie in the sky" game. I donít price, sell, or even advertise anything till it's real, proven and available.

SRT8
01-11-2007, 07:19 PM
I can have any cam you want ground, as well as offer cams from KRC and Frank racing if you like any of thereís.

As for strokers, I will not have any pricing till we release them, I donít like to play the "pie in the sky" game. I donít price, sell, or even advertise anything till it's real, proven and available.
That's great about the custom cams. I don't want to lose any low end tq. I'd like to get 100hp to the rw if I could.

On the stroker, the reason I asked for price was the huge difference i've seen. I'm not sure I want to spend that much green on a DD. :)

GotStroke?
01-11-2007, 08:26 PM
I just looked at the locally done heads, not 6.1. (They call them junk, wrong shaped intake ports, lack velocity because of their shape, and don't really make HP until way out of the RPM Band of the 6.1 Hemi.) They also modified the shape of the intake ports. They should be tested soon as the final mods were just done to them. Spendy, but if they work they will be worth it. As far as other versions go, I can't say but according to them the stock 6.1 heads can't be improved any just made more sluggish by porting. These heads are CNC machined with several size valve options. Different valves completely, better shaped that should really flow. (341" at .500 lift, intake) I saw the flow charts. They are mostly only Mopar Engine Builders but the head porter knows other engines as well. I'll post more later when this information is available. Gene

Hey Gene,
When you say 6.1 heads can't be made better by porting, then say that the heads you're going to test are CNC'd, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense since CNCing is a way to port heads. Changing port shape, using larger/better shaped valves, cutting seats...those are all things done under the general guise of the term "porting". Porting can also mean adding material, as I stated above, not just removing it via grinding.
While CNC porting is nice because ports can easily be replicated, heads ported this way can suffer from core shift, and the CNC port is only as good as the hand port it was patterned after.
FWIW, all heads used at the highest level of motorsports/racing are either completely hand ported or CNC'd then finished by hand.

GotStroke?
01-11-2007, 08:36 PM
Hahaha and everyone wonders why the TBSS guys think we're all a bunch of arrogant *******s....

I could care less if you think I'm arrogant, just don't call me ignorant. I also have friends that own all types of performance vehicles, so drop the weaknut blanket statements please.

I'm not going to play cyber-muscles with you Stroke, but who are you again?

I've never done anything for Mopar/Dodge before but if you own a Modular you probably know who I am. If you really care to know send me a PM and I'll fill you in, in detail.

You wanna talk about misinformation:

"Letting anyone but a pro touch a set of cylinder heads is the worst mistake anyone can make."

So your saying all the vendors on this site and anyone using a CNC machine is the worst mistake in the world? And that no one will make power by doing this? Guess all the dyno's in the world are lying to us then...

Where did I say anything about CNCs in my earlier replies? It's not so much the method used, but the person doing the actual porting--since CNC's just replicate a given design that was previously hand ported.
As for Heat/PPP heads, I'm still looking for a dynograph (though those are easily manipulated) or timeslip to prove otherwise. I do know that several Jeep owners lost MPH and gained ET from Heat heads. The sad fact is 99% of customers don't have a clue what they're buying, therefore the shiniest port job with the highest flow #s usually sell the most. Unfortunately in reality, those heads are also overported pieces of **** that will turn any motor into a dog.
The bottom line is that if you truly know how to make power, it doesn't matter what brand of head you're starting with, it can be improved, end of story.


"LOL, when was the last time you called Al for a price quote? "

I haven't cause I'm not a sack hanger.

I guess that means you were assuming out your ass before, kind of like the 5-10HP difference you claim. Why not STFU until you know facts?

But I guess I'd like to know what you're consider Indy Cylinder heads cause they do the porting for PPP. Are they "novices"? PPP's price for a set of heads is ~1200 bucks. And they are making good power across the whole RPM range.

Really? Link me to a private party dyno graph or track test. The best results I've seen so far are from Matt, and they're through a stock exhaust no less. Please tell me you actually have real data of some sort to back this claim, not just another assumption. Don't link me to PPPs own website, hopefully I won't have to explain why to you.

I can't wait to see what power you make with Al's ported heads alone...if you think you're getting more than 10 HP than what PPP's heads do you are crazy. But what do I know I didn't author the most complete/comprehensive and accurate Modular head guide to date...

Again, do you have any idea what it takes to make 350HP from 1.5L of small bore N/A 2v with ~12:1 C/R? That's 233HP per Liter, naturally aspirated with not much more than pump gas. What part of you thinks a mass cylinder porter like PPP/Indy is on par with a world record holding builder/porter? LMAO!
When the time comes will you put your money where your loud/ignorant mouth is? I have no problem putting a wager on the fact that there will be substantially more than a 10HP difference between a world class builder and PPP, do you have the knowledge and insight to bet against me?

I don't get you man. My point was don't post something unless it's going to provide help. Here we are 4 posts later and your an @ss. WTF is wrong with you?

Then why are you still posting? I said it twice already, and I'll say it again. I detest misinformation, and you are obviously misinformed. Reading through this thread again I can find 10x as much useful (not to mention truthful and credible) info in my posts vs. yours. If you want to continue on as if you have a clue on this subject, go ahead, if not, let it go and educate yourself.
The bottom line is you're getting mad because I'm telling you what you don't want or care to hear. Unfortunately for you, it's all correct.

SRT8
01-11-2007, 08:45 PM
I'm looking for good/solid info & opinions on heads/cams/strokers. The more info the better. rainmaker & gotstroke, don't get this thread locked, there have been a record # of locked threads in the last 2 days.

GotStroke?
01-11-2007, 09:00 PM
In case anyone's wondering what a race ported Ford GT head done by Al looks like vs. stock, here are a few shots. These heads flow 360/290 @ .500" lift with killer velocity on a small 3.55" bore with 37/32mm valves.

Intake port you can also see the bronze guides: http://www.corral.net/photopost/data/500/medium/more_andys_heads4.jpg http://www.corral.net/photopost/data/500/medium/more_andys_heads4.jpg

Another intake port: http://www.corral.net/photopost/data/500/medium/more_andys_heads3.jpg http://www.corral.net/photopost/data/500/medium/more_andys_heads3.jpg

Stock intake port: http://www.corral.net/photopost/data/500/medium/reGT5jpg.jpg http://www.corral.net/photopost/data/500/medium/reGT5jpg.jpg

Exhaust Port: http://www.corral.net/photopost/data/500/medium/more_andys_heads2.jpg http://www.corral.net/photopost/data/500/medium/more_andys_heads2.jpg

Stock exhaust port: http://www.corral.net/photopost/data/500/medium/05GThead4.JPG http://www.corral.net/photopost/data/500/medium/05GThead4.JPG

GotStroke?
01-11-2007, 09:06 PM
I'm looking for good/solid info & opinions on heads/cams/strokers. The more info the better. rainmaker & gotstroke, don't get this thread locked, there have been a record # of locked threads in the last 2 days.

I'm handing you info on a platter, and this isn't even your thread...
I don't think the thread will get locked because of posts backed by fact and personal experience. Look to the guy making the assumptions, and that started the name calling. Also remember that this isn't second grade, not everyone's opinion is or should be weighted equally.

rainmaker
01-11-2007, 09:17 PM
blah blah blah...

I'm glad you think there is only one person in the whole world that can port heads....i don't have to call you ignorant Stroke...your doing a fine job by yourself....

www.lxforums.com/board register there and do a search for all the vendors you slam. I'm sure FRI, PPP, the Hemishop, etc... would like to hand you a stack full of timeslips...

No one on that board is going any faster with ported heads form these vendors... /sarcasm off

BTW did you work on any of these engines yourself, or do you just pay someone? I can list a bunch of impressive accomplishments SOMEONE else did too...but I can turn a wrench or two. Why don't you look at some of my other posts, before you assume.

I'm done with you Stroke. Wrestle with pigs and you both end up getting dirty...

Doubt we'll ever see a true stock vs. heads only comparision, but have fun making 10 more HP...

GotStroke?
01-11-2007, 09:33 PM
I'm glad you think there is only one person in the whole world that can port heads....i don't have to call you ignorant Stroke...your doing a fine job by yourself....

www.lxforums.com/board register there and do a search for all the vendors you slam. I'm sure FRI, PPP, the Hemishop, etc... would like to hand you a stack full of timeslips...

No one on that board is going any faster with ported heads form these vendors... /sarcasm off

BTW did you work on any of these engines yourself, or do you just pay someone? I can list a bunch of impressive accomplishments SOMEONE else did too...but I can turn a wrench or two. Why don't you look at some of my other posts, before you assume.

I'm done with you Stroke. Wrestle with pigs and you both end up getting dirty...

Doubt we'll ever see a true stock vs. heads only comparision, but have fun making 10 more HP...


Typical response from someone with their head up their ass. You didn't back a single claim you made all day...As I originally said, I didn't name a porter initially for this very reason. Your R/C skills suck worse than your knowledge of engines. There are quite a few quality porters, a few more are Champion Cylinder Head, Reher Morrison, Kris Starnes, etc. but unfortunately there are many many more that don't have a clue.
Evidently your ignorance grows exponentially over time. You do realize that there's easily 10-20hp in Al's VJ vs. PPPs alone? LMAO.
Tell you what, you use your guy, and I'll use mine. Just pray you never run into me at the strip or at a light.
Yes I've R&R'd motors, trannys, put on every bolt on imaginable, even built a few engines. However, in no way shape or form would I consider myself a tier one builder, it's simply not my business. The simple fact is, no matter what the profession, there will always be a "best". Conversely there will always be the "rest". Choose wisely who you decide to pay.

Fastest H-Town Realtor
01-12-2007, 12:32 AM
Typical response from someone with their head up their ass. You didn't back a single claim you made all day...SNIP....
Yes I've R&R'd motors, trannys, put on every bolt on imaginable, even built a few engines. However, in no way shape or form would I consider myself a tier one builder, it's simply not my business. The simple fact is, no matter what the profession, there will always be a "best". Conversely there will always be the "rest". Choose wisely who you decide to pay.

If stroke does 1/4th the effort into the SRT camp he did for the SVT guys, we will all be 3 worlds better than where we are now. Between battling ignorant engine builders to just putting on new parts to try them out, his money is where his mouth is. Can you say innovator/gunea pig/1st guy on the block to take something not broken and fix it?

That being said, anyone, everyone, and specificaly rain, need to log their personal experience(s) with more than heresay, opinions and "what that guy saids". I have yet to read anything of substance from the person(s) trying (weakly) to talk smack. I see no substance...

rainmaker
01-12-2007, 06:22 AM
That being said, anyone, everyone, and specificaly rain, need to log their personal experience(s) with more than heresay, opinions and "what that guy saids". I have yet to read anything of substance from the person(s) trying (weakly) to talk smack. I see no substance...

My original point to this thread: Post more info if you're going to post anything at all. That's what makes this a better community... (see my first posting)

Revised point(due to Stroke's ego): There are always more options in the aftermarket world. Bleeding edge isn't always the best/cheapest/most available option.

I'm glad you all have the money to be pioneers in this world, but I don't. I try to go bang for the buck, and while I don't have personal experience with the Hemi (yet). I have done my research and watched others make mistakes (www.lxforums.com). Do a search on this forum and you'll see I've already posted my personal experiences. More to come too.

FastMatt
01-12-2007, 11:38 AM
Hey Gene,
When you say 6.1 heads can't be made better by porting, then say that the heads you're going to test are CNC'd, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense since CNCing is a way to port heads.


What I have gathered from reading over Gene's posts is his unnamed "guy" going to be using 5.7L heads on a 6.1L and thinks it will work better.

This is no more then a educated guess on my part, but do a search for all his posts and read over them, lots of references to the 6.1L heads being junk and the 5.7L heads being grate.

The problem with this is that this is not a case like on GM's were the 5.3L heads are a better starting point then the 5.7L LS1 castings because thy have a smaller combustion chamber and can gain comp with out having to mill them, and the port design being almost identical (even being closer to the LS6 design because the 5.3L was a later version of the motor then the 5.7L LS1). The 6.1L Hemi heads are vastly different then the 5.7L Hemi heads are, Can the 5.7L heads be ported to be better then the 6.1L heads are STOCK? YES very much so, but better then the 6.1L heads are correctly ported? No way, not IMO.

GotStroke?
01-12-2007, 01:45 PM
My original point to this thread: Post more info if you're going to post anything at all. That's what makes this a better community... (see my first posting)

See my first post and three or four more subsequent ones. I didn't name a specific builder in order to not appear biased with the info I was presenting. In return, you decide to try and be a smart ass by calling me "Gene". Smooth move. Regardless, you've missed my point. If you don't know what you're talking about, and you obviously don't, how does it help anyone to post your opinions in the manner you have? Short answer: It doesn't.

Revised point(due to Stroke's ego): There are always more options in the aftermarket world. Bleeding edge isn't always the best/cheapest/most available option.

Substitute "experience" for "ego". You're right about there being options, but what you don't realize is that 90%+ of them are ****. If you're happy with a half ass port job that saved you a hundred bucks, good for you. I never could be.

I'm glad you all have the money to be pioneers in this world, but I don't. I try to go bang for the buck, and while I don't have personal experience with the Hemi (yet). I have done my research and watched others make mistakes (www.lxforums.com). Do a search on this forum and you'll see I've already posted my personal experiences. More to come too.

Learn how to R&R your own motor and save thousands of dollars installing your own H/C. Put that money towards a quality porter and you'll be lightyears ahead of where you are now. As for bang for the buck, H/C is much more of a bargain than any present bolt on (exhaust, CAI, etc.)

GotStroke?
01-12-2007, 01:47 PM
What I have gathered from reading over Gene's posts is his unnamed "guy" going to be using 5.7L heads on a 6.1L and thinks it will work better.

This is no more then a educated guess on my part, but do a search for all his posts and read over them, lots of references to the 6.1L heads being junk and the 5.7L heads being grate.

I'm not certain on that either. :confused:

The problem with this is that this is not a case like on GM's were the 5.3L heads are a better starting point then the 5.7L LS1 castings because thy have a smaller combustion chamber and can gain comp with out having to mill them, and the port design being almost identical (even being closer to the LS6 design because the 5.3L was a later version of the motor then the 5.7L LS1). The 6.1L Hemi heads are vastly different then the 5.7L Hemi heads are, Can the 5.7L heads be ported to be better then the 6.1L heads are STOCK? YES very much so, but better then the 6.1L heads are correctly ported? No way, not IMO.

Agreed.

EXTM
01-12-2007, 02:53 PM
Hi I am wondering if anyone has done comparison on the different heads offered for the 6.1L Hemi. Specifically the GS Motorsports Heads and the Power Ported Heads. I was just wondering which one is better if any. Or if they are pretty comparable. I know the Power Ported ones are a little cheaper, but price is not the concern. So any one that has some proof or opinions on the two please let me know, I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks Everyone!

Mike,
I have PM ed you my Cell, give me a call and I will let you know.

SRT8
01-13-2007, 03:16 PM
Here is TNCHARGER's after PPP CNC H/C:
http://s126.photobucket.com/albums/p85/TNCHARGER/?action=view&current=07011201.flv
No dyno #'s yet.

GotStroke?
01-13-2007, 05:04 PM
Here is TNCHARGER's after PPP CNC H/C:
http://s126.photobucket.com/albums/p85/TNCHARGER/?action=view&current=07011201.flv
No dyno #'s yet.

I don't get it. The video ends with the car strapped down on the dyno w/out making a pull?

HEMEEE
01-13-2007, 06:34 PM
I'm looking for good/solid info & opinions on heads/cams/strokers. The more info the better. rainmaker & gotstroke, don't get this thread locked, there have been a record # of locked threads in the last 2 days. Threads have been locked recently because we took a wait-and-see approach, anticipating them to get back on topic, and instead they continued to disintegrate.

I'm handing you info on a platter, and this isn't even your thread...
I don't think the thread will get locked because of posts backed by fact and personal experience. Look to the guy making the assumptions, and that started the name calling. Also remember that this isn't second grade, not everyone's opinion is or should be weighted equally.
Everyone's opinion IS equally valuable and important here. And you're right, this isn't 2nd grade - however, threads DO get locked when members act like 2nd graders and ruin what was a good discussion with personal attacks, insults, bullying, and name-calling.

We expect members to treat each other, and our viewing guests, with respect and courtesy. That means allowing others to voice their opinion, even if it differs from our own; 'Listenening' to the opinions, knowledge, and beliefs of others keeps a discussion open, opens our minds, and opens the door to new ideas. THIS is what makes a board like this valuable. It's the poster's responsibility to contribute what they believe is of value to a discussion, NOT to sway every reader's opinion. And it's the reader's reponsibility to interpret posted material in a way that makes sense for them. Personal attacks do nothing to bolster the poster's point, or his credibility; they suck the life out of a discussion and, if allowed to become commonplace, the board itself. To the best of our ability, and with the help of other members that don't want to see this happen, we will not allow it.

Bottom line: Follow these simple rules of common courtesy... comment on the post, not the poster and disagree without being disagreeable.

HEMEEE
01-13-2007, 06:35 PM
Mike,
I have PM ed you my Cell, give me a call and I will let you know.Info sharing is what this community is all about, so if you have a response, why not share it as openly as the question was asked?

SRT8
01-13-2007, 06:50 PM
I don't get it. The video ends with the car strapped down on the dyno w/out making a pull?

Yeah, the dyno had issues. I just posted it cause he has PPP heads & Comp 268 cam, the idle is very tame.

GotStroke?
01-13-2007, 10:35 PM
Everyone's opinion IS equally valuable and important here. And you're right, this isn't 2nd grade - however, threads DO get locked when members act like 2nd graders and ruin what was a good discussion with personal attacks, insults, bullying, and name-calling.

Check out post #4 to see who started the personal attacks.

We expect members to treat each other, and our viewing guests, with respect and courtesy. That means allowing others to voice their opinion, even if it differs from our own; 'Listenening' to the opinions, knowledge, and beliefs of others keeps a discussion open, opens our minds, and opens the door to new ideas. THIS is what makes a board like this valuable. It's the poster's responsibility to contribute what they believe is of value to a discussion, NOT to sway every reader's opinion. And it's the reader's reponsibility to interpret posted material in a way that makes sense for them. Personal attacks do nothing to bolster the poster's point, or his credibility; they suck the life out of a discussion and, if allowed to become commonplace, the board itself. To the best of our ability, and with the help of other members that don't want to see this happen, we will not allow it.
Bottom line: Follow these simple rules of common courtesy... comment on the post, not the poster and disagree without being disagreeable.


With all due respect, that's really quite admirable/noble, but the "everyone's opinion is equal" ideology is what leads to 99% of the info you read on the net being pure BS. If you want your site/this forum to prosper as a technical source of information, wouldn't you want people that know what they're talking about to post correct and factual information, at least when helping other members vs. those that don't and can't or won't?
Pertaining to the personal attacks, see my response above. Someone else opened the door. After rereading my posts, I'd have to say that there's far more quality/useful info in them than harsh words. JMHO.

GotStroke?
01-13-2007, 10:36 PM
Yeah, the dyno had issues. I just posted it cause he has PPP heads & Comp 268 cam, the idle is very tame.


I just didn't know if it was a teaser vid with part II showing the actual dyno session.

HEMEEE
01-14-2007, 06:26 AM
Check out post #4 to see who started the personal attacks.

With all due respect, that's really quite admirable/noble, but the "everyone's opinion is equal" ideology is what leads to 99% of the info you read on the net being pure BS. If you want your site/this forum to prosper as a technical source of information, wouldn't you want people that know what they're talking about to post correct and factual information, at least when helping other members vs. those that don't and can't or won't?
Pertaining to the personal attacks, see my response above. Someone else opened the door. After rereading my posts, I'd have to say that there's far more quality/useful info in them than harsh words. JMHO. I feel I am being realistic and your idea that this, or any site can rise above the other "99% of the BS on the net" is actually the "admirable/noble" notion, (although we can try).
Can we at least agree that the "he started it" comments kinda contradict the point about 2nd grade ;) :)

I want it to be clear to EVERYONE that my comments are intended for EVERY forum member...
I only responded here because there were several comments regarding recent thread closures and to understand the reason for those closures is to help avoid them.

Because this is an open forum, there will be many differing and conflicting opinions expressed - that's not unique to this board, it's every forum's reality. Everyone that posts information does so with the belief that THEIR'S is the info that is "correct and factual". The debate that follows, providing it is an exchange of thoughts, and NOT insults, is what helps members understand, research further, or make up their own mind about the data presented. It is idealistic and impracticable to presume that it's the forum's responsibility to determine who "knows what they're talking about". Our responsibility is to provide an arena in which those discussions can thrive and that can't happen when the put-downs and chest-thumping starts. At that point we just end up with people going for the throat while everyone else looks on in disbelief, or worse, chimes in with their own digs... and ultimately, thread closure.

Arguments will happen occassionally, but to participate in a dispute to the point that it dominates a thread is inconsiderate. Personal grievances should be taken to PM and, for those members one truly just can't tolerate, there's always the "Ignore" feature in your UserCP, which prevents you from ever viewing their posts again.

I'm willing to continue this discussion further via PM with any of you who feel it's necessary, but as for THIS thread... let's please get it back on topic.
Further off-topic posts will be removed.
-Thanks

SRT8
01-15-2007, 04:11 PM
The warranty issue just rose it's ugly head. The dealer's service dept just told me I'd void my warranty w/a H/C change, after my salesman told me it was ok. Any good advice/experience? They are trying to tell me I have to use MP products.

SRT8
01-15-2007, 05:11 PM
Does Mopar Performance make any upgraded cams for the 6.1L yet?

GotStroke?
01-15-2007, 05:27 PM
The warranty issue just rose it's ugly head. The dealer's service dept just told me I'd void my warranty w/a H/C change, after my salesman told me it was ok. Any good advice/experience? They are trying to tell me I have to use MP products.


Well there's zero chance of them discovering that your heads are ported by themselves unless they tear into the motor. So, if you keep the cam small enough (to a lesser extent the exhaust quiet enough) there's a decent chance you'll get by. At the very least, go to a different and hopefully more friendly dealer.
The last bit of advice is probably the most important. I've had extremely helpful dealers that have actually installed aftermarket internals into my car under warranty--B cam into my old 94 Cobra--under the guise of a rear main seal leak. After that over the course of the next 15,000 miles I had three trannys put in under factory warranty. :)

Power Ported Performance
01-22-2007, 11:43 PM
Just adding perspective... there are others, but these show a range.


http://www.300cforums.com/forums/srt8-general-discussion/25457-426-rwhp-421-rwq-thanks-ported-performance-b-g-fixer.html?highlight=426+dyno

http://www.cherokeesrt8.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7083&postcount=3

On my 2006 SRT-8, no other mods were done at all other than the ported heads and intake. Was this the best that could be gained from porting 6.1L Heads? No, but additional work would cost the consumer more. We could spend more time doing more to the chamber side or runners or in the valve job, but we figured a 5 angle VJ without hand clean up would be more than fine. Anyway, there are a lot of porters out there that can do a high quality port. And there are a few that have the know how to get phenominal results out of additional manual hand porting of a CNC'd Head. Time is money. We offer a balance. If you want something more radical, it has always been an option, it just costs more.

GotStroke?
01-23-2007, 11:24 AM
Thanks for posting some real data!
So per my interpretation, it looks like you actually netted around 390rwhp corrected with the extrapolated graph for the power dip showing ~400rwhp. TQ peaked right around 390rw. All with a Mopar CAI and the ported heads as your only modifications. Not bad.
However, so far Matt's netted ~420awhp/420awtq through a Jeep driveline (add transfer case, one differential, and numerically larger gears) with the same mods (CAI, his ported heads). That's a 20rw difference, DT loss not withstanding.
To PPP's credit, as declared above, the heads could use more work. However, this info (vendor posted no less) further disproves "someone's" theory about the mass ported heads performing within 10HP of everyone elses.

Power Ported Performance
01-23-2007, 12:24 PM
Thanks for posting some real data!
So per my interpretation, it looks like you actually netted around 390rwhp corrected with the extrapolated graph for the power dip showing ~400rwhp. TQ peaked right around 390rw. All with a Mopar CAI and the ported heads as your only modifications. Not bad.
However, so far Matt's netted ~420awhp/420awtq through a Jeep driveline (add transfer case, one differential, and numerically larger gears) with the same mods (CAI, his ported heads). That's a 20rw difference, DT loss not withstanding.
To PPP's credit, as declared above, the heads could use more work. However, this info (vendor posted no less) further disproves "someone's" theory about the mass ported heads performing within 10HP of everyone elses.
Just a few points of clarification, as you are missing some critical information in your interpretation. No CAI on my Dyno's with the Heads & Intake. Everything was put back to stock. Also all data is already SAE corrected with Smoothing set to 5. The power was at 400 RWHP, the dip just dropped it down at the end of the run, but did not affect peak HP numbers.

Matt (if you are referring to Dynamic Racing) also had a CAM installed with his Heads. Throw a good cam into any combination and you will make more horse power.

Next up was Ekools 06 (DR- heads/ cam, Dub CAI, GSM TQ/Fan mod)

1st pull Dyno still set to record from 2500rpm to 6000rpm

PK AWHP 419
PK AWTQ 413

Power was still going up when the dyno stopped recording at 6000 rpm. So we decided to do the next pull to 6100rpm, and hot lapped right back to another pull no cool down.

PK AWHP 421
PK AWTQ 417


I am not sure we are talking apples to apples here...

GotStroke?
01-23-2007, 01:25 PM
Just a few points of clarification, as you are missing some critical information in your interpretation. No CAI on my Dyno's with the Heads & Intake. Everything was put back to stock. Also all data is already SAE corrected with Smoothing set to 5. The power was at 400 RWHP, the dip just dropped it down at the end of the run, but did not affect peak HP numbers.

Ah. I took the "ported heads and intake" to mean CAI, but I guess you actually ported the manifold instead?

Matt (if you are referring to Dynamic Racing) also had a CAM installed with his Heads. Throw a good cam into any combination and you will make more horse power.

He did use an aftermarket stick. Do you have any results with a comp 268 or similar cam? For the record, Matt's manifold was unported/stock.


I am not sure we are talking apples to apples here...

No we're not, the fact that we're comparing a Jeep (AWD) to a 300C is a stretch in and of itself; factor in the ported intake (PPP) and cam/CAI (DR) and it becomes more of a mess. Being that you also said you leave some things on the table in order to make this work more affordable, do you have any race ported examples in use?
This will come in handy for future comparisons.

Thanks

FastMatt
01-23-2007, 02:42 PM
Would be better to look at the gains from the base line

Your heads and ported intake (stock cam) gained 46 REAR wheel HP

My heads/cam (stock intake) Gained 75 ALL wheel HP...

strange comparison seeing how one has a stock cam, and the other has a stock intake...

FastMatt
01-23-2007, 02:51 PM
Do you have any results with a comp 268 or similar cam? For the record,



there is a thread on the LX board about a guy that installed a "FATMAN" Frank racing cam ( A MUCH bigger cam then the comp 268) with Power Ported Performance heads/intake (Indy),CAI, Hi Flo cats, Magna cat-back, HEAT TCM, and B&G PCM

It Dynoed 425 REAR wheel HP and 399 TQ

here is it's dyno chart

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e268/bluebobo/DSC00673.jpg


Here is the dyno of Ekools jeep with Our heads/ comp 268 cam/and dub CAI (stock PCM, Stock Intake, stock cats, stock cat back) ALL WHEEL HP

http://www.dynamicracing.com/mw/images/0/01/Drhc-srt8p2.jpg

Crank
01-23-2007, 03:42 PM
Just wondering how hard is it to swap out the cam and is this a possible do it your self?

FastMatt
01-23-2007, 04:07 PM
Just wondering how hard is it to swap out the cam and is this a possible do it your self?


Some people can some people cant, just like some people can change a tire and some cant lol

"do it your self?"

is hard to say in the world of changing cams on late model OHV cars the hemi's are not hard at all.

But I know people that if you gave them a fully stocked tool box and all the time in the world thy would not be able to change there plugs let alone change a cam...


so in short that’s really a question that cant be given a simple reply to.

Crank
01-23-2007, 04:15 PM
Now is the cam turning on any cel lights? Sorry for being kinda of clue less but where does the cam go is it internal engine work?

GotStroke?
01-23-2007, 04:23 PM
Thanks for the additional info Matt!