Hey all!

There was a thread that seems to have disappeared over on the blue site about a member that ran into a test mule for the upcomming Challenger. There was on comment that was made from the guy driving the test mule. He said something to the nature that the 6.1 will not gain anything from a program and the only way to get more power was from heads and a cam. So, I was laying in bed last night and got to thinking that maybe this is what Mopar Performance is holding back from us. Is it possible that they are going to release the heads and cam from the 6.4L as an upgrage package? Dynamic Racing has proven that there is a lot of power to be gained there and at a great price! I just hope Mopar does something soon!

There may or may not be much to gain on a 100% stock motor, but there are definitely gains to be had when you throw a full exhaust and H/C or H/C/I (stock/ported) package together.
Interesting read, nonetheless.

Well as far as i've heard with the challenger, it will either be getting a 6.4 or 6.6 for the SRT model. This would be in a couple of years, and I believe the entire SRT lineup will be going through some changes at the same time too. They might get a bigger engine as well.

Sounds like BS to me. The 6.1 can make 500 hp easy with a PCM Re-Flash! DCX has several engines already that makes this possible, even more? Some people have too much time on their hands or Winter Blahs! Gene

Sounds like BS to me. The 6.1 can make 500 hp easy with a PCM Re-Flash! DCX has several engines already that makes this possible, even more? Some people have too much time on their hands or Winter Blahs! Gene

Ok...I'll bite-Where are these 500HP miracle engines? Links? Vids? Anything?

Ok...I'll bite-Where are these 500HP miracle engines? Links? Vids? Anything? I can't help you there but talked to the SRT Engs at the Nats. Their PCM Re-Flash can do it, like 3 to4 tenths less ET and 4 mph in the 1/4 mile! Ran against a 07 DCX JGC, his times! This info is Top Secret? They do visit these forums though, told me that, know most of the Vendors Products and commented on some of the aftermarket parts, mostly negative. (reason; wrong approach to gain performance) Gene

4 tenths in the quarter is not 500HP...more like 35/40Hp gain. I would hope the manufacturer could muster a 9% increase in power of its own engine..

4 tenths in the quarter is not 500HP...more like 35/40Hp gain. I would hope the manufacturer could muster a 9% increase in power of its own engine.. You weren't there were you? Temps ran in the 100* range, 109* Wed. and high 90's at race day. Pushing a 5000+ pound vehicle to those times is more than 35 hp. My JGC ran 4 tenths slower then at my local track, mph was down 2. That DCX JGC was driven there not trailered and got stock mileage. No Gimmicks add on devices and looked bone stock. These Engs are pretty savoy people, took notes from questions asked there. They have tested many engines etc. Blown up some, wrecked some vehicles, to find an overall design. Believe me they can make big HP, even 550! A well built engine for sure. Gene

Sounds like BS to me. The 6.1 can make 500 hp easy with a PCM Re-Flash! DCX has several engines already that makes this possible, even more? Some people have too much time on their hands or Winter Blahs! Gene

500hp with a re-flash? lol ok

Cant wait till it hits the market, seeing how the Mopar re-flash PCM for the 5.7L Hemi's is good for 5-10hp MAX in the real world.

Lets not even get into the Mopar PCM's for the vipers that are good for a 5 hp LOSS in power to a best of 2-3 hp gain.

Then there is the Mopar PCM's for the older 318 and 360 V8's that were good for about 0-10hp max...

But some how there re-flash for the 6.1L gives 80+hp? lol ok...

No matter how much I would love to see a PCM re-flash that would give a 80 hp gain for these motors, I dont see it happning. Even if it was a re-flash that required the use of 110 octane fuel, you can only go so far from adding timing and leaning out the fuel curve on a gas motor. It's not a Turbo car were the ECU controls boost and thy can raise the boost my 5-6 psi as well as more aggressive fuel and timing.

Remember Mopar is limited that thy sell there PCM's in all 50 states also. States like CA that are at see level and you can still only get 91 octane MAX and it's oxygenated fuel. That limits how much timing as well as how lean thy can make it.

4 tenths in the quarter is not 500HP...more like 35/40Hp gain. I would hope the manufacturer could muster a 9% increase in power of its own engine..

Gains of 3/10 in a car with a auto from a PCM/TCM re-flash is believable with even a less power gain then that. Reducing TQ management, firming shifts, changing shift points can account for 2/10 easy even if there was a 0 hp gain.

You weren't there were you? Temps ran in the 100* range, 109* Wed. and high 90's at race day. Pushing a 5000+ pound vehicle to those times is more than 35 hp. My JGC ran 4 tenths slower then at my local track, mph was down 2. That DCX JGC was driven there not trailered and got stock mileage. No Gimmicks add on devices and looked bone stock. These Engs are pretty savoy people, took notes from questions asked there. They have tested many engines etc. Blown up some, wrecked some vehicles, to find an overall design. Believe me they can make big HP, even 550! A well built engine for sure. Gene

Nope, wasn't there. But I do know that:1- Manufacturers do not leave 80 HP on the table...nope. 2-Your conditions were not consistant with your baseline. 3-"Looked" bone stock? Or is bone stock? Hmm. 4-Most folks can get big HP...just not with a "reflash" only on a N/A stock engine. Not going to happen.

If a "reflash" comes out with 80 hp gain...I'll buy 2. 1 for me and one for you...happily. Until then, this vaporware you speak of is as elusive as the vehicles that run it and the engineers that work on em.





Gains of 3/10 in a car with a auto from a PCM/TCM re-flash is believable with even a less power gain then that. Reducing TQ management, firming shifts, changing shift points can account for 2/10 easy even if there was a 0 hp gain.

Yup...this I know. I would imagine someone with "inside" info would know this also.

Just throwing this out there. The Moper Performance ECU for the previous ZJ came in two models. One for vehicles in California, and one for the other 49 states.

Just throwing this out there. The Moper Performance ECU for the previous ZJ came in two models. One for vehicles in California, and one for the other 49 states.

California is not the only state you can only get a best of 91 oct in

Lets see the PCM only controls timing and injector flow? Better learn more about it. A local almost pure stock LX 300C made 397 RWHP on the dyno. He runs in the 12's at 112 mph on Dots! He beat all the PP head, big tube header, Quaffe posi equipped cars at the Nats. The SRT6 Crossfires actually makes 356 hp not the 330 stated. Maybe some 6.1 engines makes more than 420 hp too? I wonder if it is possible. Maybe the Earth is really flat? Get real as I believe the Engs more than some tuners that think they know more. Enough said, I'm happy with my SRT8 JGC and it doesn't run in the 10s like my Grand National with a modest tune but sure fools some big block Trans Ams and beats them by 3 car lengths at the drag strip. Gene

500hp with a re-flash? lol ok

Cant wait till it hits the market, seeing how the Mopar re-flash PCM for the 5.7L Hemi's is good for 5-10hp MAX in the real world.

Lets not even get into the Mopar PCM's for the vipers that are good for a 5 hp LOSS in power to a best of 2-3 hp gain.

Then there is the Mopar PCM's for the older 318 and 360 V8's that were good for about 0-10hp max...

But some how there re-flash for the 6.1L gives 80+hp? lol ok...

No matter how much I would love to see a PCM re-flash that would give a 80 hp gain for these motors, I dont see it happning. Even if it was a re-flash that required the use of 110 octane fuel, you can only go so far from adding timing and leaning out the fuel curve on a gas motor. It's not a Turbo car were the ECU controls boost and thy can raise the boost my 5-6 psi as well as more aggressive fuel and timing.

Remember Mopar is limited that thy sell there PCM's in all 50 states also. States like CA that are at see level and you can still only get 91 octane MAX and it's oxygenated fuel. That limits how much timing as well as how lean thy can make it.

Can't comment on the other engines but the mopar pcm for the 360 was good for an honest 25hp. Fairly certain it was the same on the 318s. I wouldnt be surprised if mopar could get another 25 hp out of the 6.1. Also I believe for the 5.9s at least Mopar PCMs were offered in two flavors, CA emissions and federal emissions.

California is not the only state you can only get a best of 91 oct in


I was refering to the difference in emissions, not quality of fuel.

A local almost pure stock LX 300C made 397 RWHP on the dyno. He runs in the 12's at 112 mph on Dots!


ya shore he did... another mystery car...

Funny how that came out of the blue now after how in another thread you were talking about a heads/cam 5.7L car on the LX site was running 12's and that was your poster boy till you fond out that that car was running MY heads/cam... lol

please show up some proof of this “Pure stock” stock 5.7L car that makes over 30 more RWHP then 300C SRT-8's do and runs faster then them. (was the DA like -3000ft that day or something? Lol)


your posts are realy starting to make me laph, keep them comming.

Lets see the PCM only controls timing and injector flow?

Those are the only 2 things it controls that control POWER out-put of the MOTOR.

Other then Drive by wire throttle plate control.

And it’s Injector pulse not injector flow.

O wait maby in your fantisy land the Hemi 6.1L has VTEC


(now if you are talking about car performance the PCM (AND TCM) controls other things that have a effect on that, but not power out-put of the MOTOR

ya shore he did... another mystery car...

Funny how that came out of the blue now after how in another thread you were talking about a heads/cam 5.7L car on the LX site was running 12's and that was your poster boy till you fond out that that car was running MY heads/cam... lol

please show up some proof of this “Pure stock” stock 5.7L car that makes over 30 more RWHP then 300C SRT-8's do and runs fast then them. (was the DA like -3000ft that day or something? Lol)


your posts are realy starting to make me laph, keep them comming.

It is true. I have seen the car several times (at the track too), and know the owner personally. Everything Gene says is right on. No way a stock car should be that robust, bit it is. It is a freaky car; not "right" if you know what I mean. These SRT8's are not all the same from the factory, and the mentioned 300C SRT8 is a testament to that - a true caveat.

BTW - The 300C is an SRT8, not a 5.7 LX.

Can't comment on the other engines but the mopar pcm for the 360 was good for an honest 25hp.

Mopar PCM gained 0.02 peek HP on this 360 (and lost power up top)

http://krcperformance.net/marty_dyno/mopar%20pcm.JPG


"Test was on the above 360 R/T, Peak was 0.1 horsepower and torque was 28 ft/lbs of torque. This dyno test was done with the Mopar PCM first and then reinstalling the stock PCM for the next run to eliminate any adaptive learning."


The "best gain" of 25hp is real, but down low, Peek gains are normaly around 0-10 at best from what I have seen, and with losses up top.

A flash like that for the 6.1L despite if it had gains down low would still not change the 420hp 6.1L into the 500 or 550 HP monster that He is talking about it would be a 420.2 hp 6.lL with more low end grunt.

BTW - The 300C is an SRT8, not a 5.7 LX.

well that makes allot more sense

and what does "almost pure stock" mean?

I can see that on a good running one with bolt on's in good air. Also the Dyno # was that corrected or un-corrected? because this time of yr in the cold at or near see level the SAE corrected # is nearly always LOWER then the actual #'s (as will the 1/4 mile times be faster)

Those factors in place I can totally believe those #'s.

^^^ I was not there for the dyno, so I cannot comment.

The only accessory / bolt-on is the Mopar cold-air intake, and he actually LOST 5 HP with it implemented :confused: :confused: He chose to keep it though for aesthetic purposes. I have pictures of said vehicle, but it is nothing you haven't seen before - and that is point, straight stocker.

^^^ I was not there for the dyno, so I cannot comment.

The only accessory / bolt-on is the Mopar cold-air intake, and he actually LOST 5 HP with it implemented :confused: :confused: He chose to keep it though for aesthetic purposes. I have pictures of said vehicle, but it is nothing you haven't seen before - and that is point, straight stocker. BlackSRT8 has seen this car and how it runs. We both race with the owner from Minneapolis. A 05 300C, it has: old style CAI, GSM fan switch, 180* thermostat and ran DOT tires mounted on 18" rims. I have driven this car personally, it pulls awesome, blows the tires away at 30 mph and runs high 12's@110 mph at our local track. The CAI loses some HP because of pulling in high underhood temps, SRT Engs said 5 to 8 hp is lost through this kind of inlet system. His current mileage is over 24K, he has won the local muscle car shoot out twice at Brainerd, MN. track! (car has over 300 runs on it) My comment on the car in Arizona running proves something? That's about 100 hp gain to run those times, and better than a 6.1 equipped one! You haven't proved anything to me Yet? Dyno numbers don't always tell the whole truth, to Me, "Track Times tells the Truth, Whole Truth, and Nothing but the Truth" I'm all for Performance Gains but misleading statements bristle my ****els. Good Racing. Gene

1-Track times do tell...track mphs tell even more.

2-1 car running incredifast times does not a mod make. It needs to be replicated on other "like type" machines.

3-X2 on the misleading statements.

Mopar PCM gained 0.02 peek HP on this 360 (and lost power up top)

http://krcperformance.net/marty_dyno/mopar%20pcm.JPG


"Test was on the above 360 R/T, Peak was 0.1 horsepower and torque was 28 ft/lbs of torque. This dyno test was done with the Mopar PCM first and then reinstalling the stock PCM for the next run to eliminate any adaptive learning."


The "best gain" of 25hp is real, but down low, Peek gains are normaly around 0-10 at best from what I have seen, and with losses up top.

A flash like that for the 6.1L despite if it had gains down low would still not change the 420hp 6.1L into the 500 or 550 HP monster that He is talking about it would be a 420.2 hp 6.lL with more low end grunt.

The 360 that came in the 5.9L ZJ has a different program than the one in the dakota's. Do you have any dyno numbers for the ZJ Mopar Perf. ECU?

My comment on the car in Arizona running proves something? That's about 100 hp gain to run those times, and better than a 6.1 equipped one!

Well there you go wrong AGAIN, he gained about 60 HP to run those times with that little baby 260 cam. He is bringing his car out in Jan for a 268 cam install should get him another 20 or so...


You haven't proved anything to me Yet?

lol Now theres my goal in life to proove somthing to you.


Dyno numbers don't always tell the whole truth, to Me, "Track Times tells the Truth, Whole Truth, and Nothing but the Truth"

That can be true, that why I spend so much time at the track, when it's open. Maybe you should check my sig....

What’s really funny is that if I had track times and no Dyno #'s you would be saying the opposite I'm shore, you would have a big list of things that can effect track times. Why don’t you just lay out on the table, you cant afford to mod your Jeep so you just bash the people that can to some how make your self feel better. I have seen sooo many people just like you over the yrs on these web forums. Why don’t you just leave these good people alone and let them enjoy there cars and make them faster.




I'm all for Performance Gains but misleading statements bristle my ****els.


Am I the only person that has one hell of a time understanding you most of the time? I see clearly from the other threads that I am not.




Good Racing. Gene

You too, it's a fun sport.

The 360 that came in the 5.9L ZJ has a different program than the one in the dakota's. Do you have any dyno numbers for the ZJ Mopar Perf. ECU?

no I dont, a good person to talk to if you want to find one would be Marty at KRC, I bet he has dynoed more 318, and 360 trucks then anybody. He is also a cool guy.

Ill post some dyno sheets when I find them. They used to be in a thread on jeepsunlimited.com but that thread looks like its been replaced. They did show a solid 20hp gain throughout the rev range and a 25hp peak gain. I along with many many others at JU have done the mopar pcm with signifigant improvements in e/t (with only minor changes in shift strategy). I did every bolt on that was available for my 5.9 and by far the PCM provided the most SOTP feel.

The ZJ 5.9 was also hooked to an electric fan which may have made a difference. Mopar may have also programmed the ZJ PCM more aggressively. Don't know. The BG flash off the top of my head was reported as an honest 30hp. Not hard to believe on a 360ci engine making 245 hp from the factory.

i have my doubts as to whether mopar will release a performance flash for us. its been mentioned a few times here that our trucks were released with a conservative tune from the factory because of longevity concerns. if that's true then i wouldn't expect to see a mopar branded pcm.

BlackSRT8 has seen this car and how it runs. We both race with the owner from Minneapolis. A 05 300C, it has: old style CAI, GSM fan switch, 180* thermostat and ran DOT tires mounted on 18" rims. I have driven this car personally, it pulls awesome, blows the tires away at 30 mph and runs high 12's@110 mph at our local track. The CAI loses some HP because of pulling in high underhood temps, SRT Engs said 5 to 8 hp is lost through this kind of inlet system. His current mileage is over 24K, he has won the local muscle car shoot out twice at Brainerd, MN. track! (car has over 300 runs on it) My comment on the car in Arizona running proves something? That's about 100 hp gain to run those times, and better than a 6.1 equipped one! You haven't proved anything to me Yet? Dyno numbers don't always tell the whole truth, to Me, "Track Times tells the Truth, Whole Truth, and Nothing but the Truth" I'm all for Performance Gains but misleading statements bristle my ****els. Good Racing. Gene

Interesting coments Gene...One thing I wonder about though and find curious.

"Black" says in previous post..."lost 5 hp, kept for asthetic purposes".

You also state regarding intake that "Eng's state 5 to 8 is lost through this kind of inlet".

I have read many comments that kind of infer that " the SRT guys help design it...(specifically referring to intakes and exhausts here) and since they know what they are doing it must be good." My question is why would they sign off on an aftermarket Mopar endorsed CAI that knowingly loses hp.

Doesn't make sense to me.....seems strange....any thoughts?

This CAI isn't like any sold today? It is completely open to the engine compartment. The newer ones are better in that aspect. Comparing a 5.9 engine to this 6.1 hemi is misleading? Lets stay on subject and do our comparisons with the 6.1 Engine. I doubt the cam does much to help performance, those big ported 6.1 heads loose what little gain comes from the cam? Reason has been stated many times in my posts! Drag Strip Times more equate to street driving than Dyno Don's Sheets! 2WD Dyno Runs doesn't prove anything but loss of 60 ft traction and PCM Performance! The PCM likes AWD, designed that way, TE proves this to be true. (tried it several times w ESP off) even works better on the LX Cars. I'll stay with the stock SRT8 Cam for now, headers, stock 3" cats, muffler change, stock modified airbox, heads? Maybe but not current ported ones? Misleading maybe but on purpose? Why? A new design is on the Horizon that looks real promising? Top Secret Information! Stay Tuned, Hold Your Breath, Pedal to the Metal and beware of the Smokies! Funning. Gene

2WD Dyno Runs doesn't prove anything but loss of 60 ft traction and PCM Performance! The PCM likes AWD, designed that way, TE proves this to be true.

my Dyno charts are on a AWD Dyno.

Under my alias...I posted this info a few months ago over on the blue site. I ran the Jeep around with the scanner on.......at WOT it sees 17 degrees timing......and 27-30 during cruising and between shifts the throttle plate actually closes. At WOT you see 87% throttle opening and I believe it closed to 60% during shifts and opened again to 87% after the trans engaged to the next gear,

There maybe "some" hp/tq on the table but I doubt more than 20hp/tq. The benefit or improvement we need in my opinion is some more wot timing and at wot the throttle plate needs to be at 100% with even firmer shifts.

At this point DXC has really put some safeguards in the powertrain.