Saw a black 2007 ML63 on the road today. Beautiful...midsize suv, and comparable in a lot of ways to the SRT. I checked mbusa.com, and was almost disappointed to see it had 503 hp, but then, only 4.8 0-60. I know a little about some of the other amgs, and the car versions tend to run in the low to mid 4s. Is it the weight and the gearing of that 7 speed that limits it. For $86,000 and 503 horses, you'd think it would give us a real run.

ML63 AMG is the handsome brother that was left dad's money in the will. SRT8 is the black sheep that can still beat brother up.:D

Saw a black 2007 ML63 on the road today. Beautiful...midsize suv, and comparable in a lot of ways to the SRT. I checked mbusa.com, and was almost disappointed to see it had 503 hp, but then, only 4.8 0-60. I know a little about some of the other amgs, and the car versions tend to run in the low to mid 4s. Is it the weight and the gearing of that 7 speed that limits it. For $86,000 and 503 horses, you'd think it would give us a real run.


Most definitley the weight - same thing with the Range HSE supercharged - lots of ponies but too much weight.

The Porsche Cayanne turbo S has 520 ponies, but the same 0-60 time as the benz. 4.8

$86k is way too much. Just imagine if you bought it and you came up on an SRT8...you know its gonna beat you so why waste the money. Get the Jeep!

Mercedes tends to be conservative with their 0-60 numbers. Wait for a real test.

I doubt those are conservative numbers, but we will see. Is this a naturally aspirated, or FI engine? If FI, lag could account for less low end torque and HP and lower 0-60 times. I also agree that gearing, tires, and weight (in that order) will effect the 0-60 times. Regardless, for 83K, think of the permutations....2 SRT8s and change, Heavily modded SRT8 and 20K to spare, an SRT8 and a standard corvette, a Zo6 and a jeep Liberty for off weather, a Viper...need I go on?

Why would you doubt the numbers are conservative? Mercedes has a history of being conservative with their numbers. Look at the facts: The ML500 weighs 4795lbs. The SRT8 weighs 4850lbs. The ML63 will likely end up weighing about the same. Same weight yet the ML63 gets a solid 80hp boost over the SRT8 as well as an extra 45lb ft of torque. It doesn't end there though. The ML63 also gets two more gears to use this power. Net result? ML63 is going to be quicker than the SRT8 and by default the new king of the performance SUV hill. You really think DCX's german leadership would've settled for anything else?

There's nothing wrong with the ML63 being quicker. It is after all much more expensive and hey its still a DCX product.

Why would you doubt the numbers are conservative? Mercedes has a history of being conservative with their numbers. The ML weighs the same as the grand cherokee. Add more power and more gears to use that power and you've got a vehicle thats going to be quicker than our vehicles.

There's nothing wrong with that of course as the ML is a great deal more expensive, and hey its still a DCX product.

More gears = sluggish

More gears = sluggish
No.

Depending on the model in which its fitted, the 7G-TRONIC can reduce fuel consumption and shave up to .3 second off 0-to-60 acceleration.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3828/is_200311/ai_n9306183

No.



http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3828/is_200311/ai_n9306183



Nice try:rolleyes: You would be a dismal lawyer ;) It saves .3 seconds on the 0-60 when compared to the same base model.

Moreover, the SRT Engineers chose not to implement a 6-speed transmission on the SRT8 GC because it would slow the vehicle. Search the chat sessions, and previous posts on this board, you will find the truth...

Nice try:rolleyes: You would be a dismal lawyer ;) It saves .3 seconds on the 0-60 when compared to the same base model.

Moreover, the SRT Engineers chose not to implement a 6-speed transmission on the SRT8 GC because it would slow the vehicle. Search the chat sessions, and previous posts on this board, you will find the truth...
Why is that? Because I provide proof whereas you provide only hot air? ;)

It shaves up to .3 seconds compared to the same model with a 5 speed transmission. 6 speed auto huh? To my knowledge DCX has only just now started offering a 6 speed auto transmission and only on 6 cylinder models. I seriously doubt a 6 speed auto was ever in the running for the SRT8. I'll look but I would love it if you would show me these comments you claim were made by a DCX engineer. Perhaps you're referring to a 6 speed manual? That would make more sense but wouldn't be topical in this debate about performance differences between automatic transmissions.

A properly designed 7 speed auto can be made to perform better than a 5 speed. This advantage, along with the 80hp/45lb ft power advantage enjoyed by the ML63, means it will be quicker.

more:

Having seven, instead of the more common four or five gear ratios allows lower low gears for better acceleration, higher high gears for more economical high-speed cruising, and keeps the engine operating at its most efficient speeds more of the time.

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/03/03/003557.html

Why is that? Because I provide proof whereas you provide only hot air? ;)

It shaves up to .3 seconds compared to the same model with a 5 speed transmission. 6 speed auto huh? To my knowledge DCX has only just now started offering a 6 speed auto transmission and only on 6 cylinder models. I seriously doubt a 6 speed auto was ever in the running for the SRT8. I'll look but I would love it if you would show me these comments you claim were made by a DCX engineer. Perhaps you're referring to a 6 speed manual? That would make more sense but wouldn't be topical in this debate about performance differences between automatic transmissions.

A properly designed 7 speed auto can be made to perform better than a 5 speed. This advantage, along with the 80hp/45lb ft power advantage enjoyed by the ML63, means it will be quicker.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Are you generalizing the ML63's performance results to all vehicles and components? Quite noobish.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Are you generalizing the ML63's performance results to all vehicles and components? Quite noobish.

I don't see how "Post hoc ergo propter hoc" applies here. The MLs advantages afford it better performance. There is a corrolation between more power and more opportunity to use that power and rate of acceleration.



What affects a vehicles rate of accleration? Weight, Drag coefficient, Power (hp and torque throughout the rev range), ability to use that power (7 speed auto > 5 speed auto), and ability to put that power to the ground (awd). Agreed?

Vehicle A (ML) and Vehicle B (SRT8):

Both have similar drag coefficients. Both have AWD. Both weigh the same. Vehicle A has more power. Vehicle A has more opportunity to use this power (as evidenced by the mercedes press release and review I posted stating that the 7 speed auto provides superior performance compared to the 5 speed auto - which our vehicles use). It is a perfectly reasonable assumption that Vehicle A will be geared aggressively as Vehicle B has been. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that Vehicle A will be quicker.

Convinced yet?

I don't see how "Post hoc ergo propter hoc" applies here. The MLs advantages afford it better performance. There is a corrolation between more power and more opportunity to use that power and rate of acceleration.



What affects a vehicles rate of accleration? Weight, Drag coefficient, Power (hp and torque throughout the rev range), ability to use that power (7 speed auto > 5 speed auto), and ability to put that power to the ground (awd). Agreed?

Vehicle A (ML) and Vehicle B (SRT8):

Both have similar drag coefficients. Both have AWD. Both weigh the same. Vehicle A has more power. Vehicle A has more opportunity to use this power (as evidenced by the mercedes press release and review I posted stating that the 7 speed auto provides superior performance compared to the 5 speed auto - which our vehicles use). It is a perfectly reasonable assumption that Vehicle A will be geared aggressively as Vehicle B has been. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that Vehicle A will be quicker.

Convinced yet?

You are correct, Dave. In fact, you should join the SRT Team, and teach them a thing or two.

Actually, Team SRT has several 6 and 7 speed transmissions at their disposal, and they chose to implement the 5 speed, which results desired ratios, reduced weight, and torque optimization.

Do you know more than the SRT Eng's?

You are correct, Dave.
I know.


In fact, you should join the SRT Team, and teach them a thing or two.
Why is that? I think the SRT team did an excellent job. They turned out what is right now the worlds best performance SUV for an excellent price. It only makes sense that their brothers in AMG division would be able to eventually crank out one that will be quicker with a much higher target sale price, better engine, and transmission at their disposal.


Actually, Team SRT has several 6
Is that so? I challenge you to point me towards one 6 speed auto in the DCX parts bin that would've been compatible for the SRT8. The only 6 speed auto that DCX has that I'm aware of is just now available and is only rated for the torque from v6's. I'd have to look into it but I believe its probably a tranverse design as well. No dice there buddy.


and 7 speed transmissions at their disposal,
I seriously doubt that the SRT engineers were given the option of using the mercedes exclusive 7 speed auto. I challenge you to find me something that says otherwise. If you can, well bravo to you. I guess I'd have to eat my words. I'd of course also have to contact AMG and tell them that their brothers at SRT had it right all along, the 5 speed that they developed and used and then discarded in favor of a 7 speed they developed is actually superior. Fact is a 7 speed auto can be made to outperform a 5 speed auto.


and they chose to implement the 5 speed, which results desired ratios, reduced weight, and torque optimization.
Or they chose to implement the 5 speed because it's what was available to them, what fit their budget, and had already been proven by AMG to be stout enough for the power levels produced by the 6.1 hemi.




Do you know more than the SRT Eng's? Probably not and I never purported to. I do know that the ML63 will likely beat the SRT8 in a straight line. I also know that this is no fault of the SRT engineers. As I stated above, they did a marvelous job with what was available to them. The AMG guys have more resources, much higher target sale price, and better components to work with. I wouldn't be surprised if the 7 speed in the ML63 finds its way into the next iteration of the SRT Grand Cherokee.

Why would you doubt the numbers are conservative? Mercedes has a history of being conservative with their numbers. Look at the facts: The ML500 weighs 4795lbs. The SRT8 weighs 4850lbs. The ML63 will likely end up weighing about the same. Same weight yet the ML63 gets a solid 80hp boost over the SRT8 as well as an extra 45lb ft of torque. It doesn't end there though. The ML63 also gets two more gears to use this power. Net result? ML63 is going to be quicker than the SRT8 and by default the new king of the performance SUV hill. You really think DCX's german leadership would've settled for anything else?

There's nothing wrong with the ML63 being quicker. It is after all much more expensive and hey its still a DCX product.

with chrysler being the "little Brother" to mercedes it only makes sense that they would make us (gc srt8) second best. it's only logical that if you paid
86k to the same manufacture you would get a little more. but look at the bright side, 1 they pay twice as much for a fraction more performanc, 2 put another 10 grand or so in performance upgrades and there's nothing in the suv class that can beat us!

I do know that the ML63 will likely beat the SRT8 in a straight line.


This epitomizes your myopia.


Currently, the results are 4.8 0-60. Whether Mercedes under/over emphasizes performance numbers cannot be proven, so unless you have a ML63 in your stable with subsequent track times, or an independent review, your conjecture is worthless.

BTW, DCX is a family now, and parts are shared between business units. For example, Mercedes is the first to use the 6.4 engine that will ultimately end up in the Challenger. Please shed your paradigm of autonomous manufacturing.

I know.


Why is that? I think the SRT team did an excellent job. They turned out what is right now the worlds best performance SUV for an excellent price. It only makes sense that their brothers in AMG division would be able to eventually crank out one that will be quicker with a much higher target sale price, better engine, and transmission at their disposal.


Is that so? I challenge you to point me towards one 6 speed auto in the DCX parts bin that would've been compatible for the SRT8. The only 6 speed auto that DCX has that I'm aware of is just now available and is only rated for the torque from v6's. I'd have to look into it but I believe its probably a tranverse design as well. No dice there buddy.


I seriously doubt that the SRT engineers were given the option of using the mercedes exclusive 7 speed auto. I challenge you to find me something that says otherwise. If you can, well bravo to you. I guess I'd have to eat my words. I'd of course also have to contact AMG and tell them that their brothers at SRT had it right all along, the 5 speed that they developed and used and then discarded in favor of a 7 speed they developed is actually superior. Fact is a 7 speed auto can be made to outperform a 5 speed auto.


Or they chose to implement the 5 speed because it's what was available to them, what fit their budget, and had already been proven by AMG to be stout enough for the power levels produced by the 6.1 hemi.



Probably not and I never purported to. I do know that the ML63 will likely beat the SRT8 in a straight line. I also know that this is no fault of the SRT engineers. As I stated above, they did a marvelous job with what was available to them. The AMG guys have more resources, much higher target sale price, and better components to work with. I wouldn't be surprised if the 7 speed in the ML63 finds its way into the next iteration of the SRT Grand Cherokee.

thank both you guys for an awsome debate! i truly feel like i've learned something from reading these passages.

I always thought less gears = more efficient torque usage, less time wasted on shifting, and reduced weight.

Perhaps, I am from the old school, and my paradigms should shift (:)). Thanks for the information, Dave.

I always thought less gears = more efficient torque usage, less time wasted on shifting, and reduced weight.

Perhaps, I am from the old school, and my paradigms should shift (:)). Thanks for the information, Dave.

Pay attention boys, if you are going to admit even the slightest bit of error or the possibility thereof, then this is the way to do it!!! LOL. In all honesty this has been a fabulously civil debate between intellectual performance enthusiasts that makes me feel like that fancy Philosophy degree I paid for might be worth something after all. Post hoc ergo propter hoc .. Never in my life did I expect to see multicollinearity debated on a Jeep forum!!! Just fantastic!!!!! No name calling or personal attacks, just opinions and supporting facts. I applaud your argument. Proceed ...

Just say it will be a close race and leave it at that! Both fantasitc vehicles, one just costs 2 times as much.

$86k is way too much.

It's not that much. I paid for mine SRT8 over $81,000 (63,690 Euro). And if I could get a ML63 for $ 86k, I would love to buy it.

Here in germany the ML63 starts with $122,325 (96,164 Euro)

The german car magazine Autobild have had a compare test ML63 vs. Cayenne turbo S ->here (http://www.autobild.de/test/neuwagen/artikel.php?artikel_id=11977)

The ML did 4.9s from 0-100km/h (62.13727mph)
the Cayenne turbo S did 5.3s

Video ML 63 (http://media.autobild.de/video/9/3dee8d833e4a0fa30e2441de1a270dc9-1.wmv)

I'm pretty friendly with my local M-B dealer (wife has an SLK 320 6MT and I bought an E55 AMG from them) so I may be able to get one of the owners or salesmen to engage in a short drag race outside of the dealership grounds. Film @ 11.:D

It's not that much. I paid for mine SRT8 over $81,000 (63,690 Euro). And if I could get a ML63 for $ 86k, I would love to buy it.

Here in germany the ML63 starts with $122,325 (96,164 Euro)

The german car magazine Autobild have had a compare test ML63 vs. Cayenne turbo S ->here (http://www.autobild.de/test/neuwagen/artikel.php?artikel_id=11977)

The ML did 4.9s from 0-100km/h (62.13727mph)
the Cayenne turbo S did 5.3s

Video ML 63 (http://media.autobild.de/video/9/3dee8d833e4a0fa30e2441de1a270dc9-1.wmv)

If it'll take the new turbo s than it will definitley take an srt8...

If it'll take the new turbo s than it will definitley take an srt8...

Not necessarily, the ML63 is heavier than the SRT8........weighs approx. 305lbs more.

I'm not going to say the SRT8 is faster, but doubt the ML63 would put a beating on it.

Not necessarily, the ML63 is heavier than the SRT8........weighs approx. 305lbs more.

I'm not going to say the SRT8 is faster, but doubt the ML63 would put a beating on it.

Fact is the only way to truly know is to run 'em - eventually that will happen on the street and we'll all know. Although it will be close, amg does tend to underrate their hp tq numbers.

For example, Mercedes is the first to use the 6.4 engine that will ultimately end up in the Challenger. Please shed your paradigm of autonomous manufacturing.The SRT8 would greatly benefit from DCX's 7 Speed trannie. It would perform as well or better & would have the gearing available to get a decent fuel mileage increase. Secondly, the 6.4 to be used in the Challenger has absolutely nothing in common with the AMG 6.3 engine.

The SRT8 would greatly benefit from DCX's 7 Speed trannie. It would perform as well or better & would have the gearing available to get a decent fuel mileage increase. Secondly, the 6.4 to be used in the Challenger has absolutely nothing in common with the AMG 6.3 engine.

Help me out here...is it a proven fact that the 6.4 will be in the challenger? I have read that it is a crate engine, and that the 6.1 will be in the Challenger.

If it is, I will get on down and see my buddy at the Dodge store and get on the order list.

And no doubt the ML63 is a little bit heavier than the jeep, but it has quite a few more ponies. Still, all things considered, the SRT is a buy!

Never mind the tranny so much, The axle ratios of the two are different the ml has a 3.46 vs the jeep with 3.73 witch I think the jeep has the upper hand on launch,but the ml has more ponies that can play catch up,the real question is who will get to 155mph first,Because of the weight and axle ratio I think the Jeep will take it in the 0-60, after that its a gamble.

Never mind the tranny so much, The axle ratios of the two are different the ml has a 3.46 vs the jeep with 3.73 witch I think the jeep has the upper hand on launch,but the ml has more ponies that can play catch up,the real question is who will get to 155mph first,Because of the weight and axle ratio I think the Jeep will take it in the 0-60, after that its a gamble.

but what is the tranny ratios? i bet the 7 speed has a higer ratio in first so therefore almost canceling out th affects of the rear end ratios, and with the benz having more power less rear gear should be required.. just all depends on how effiient the 7 speed is at transfering power. Also what is the ratio of the transfer case? srt8's are 90/10 correct?

I've never been that good with math..... seems like its 11.2 hp per lb for the srt8 and 10.1 hp per lb for the ml63 - round there.

reverse those so its lbs per hp... please

My oh my, so much theoretic debate is just spinning the wheels (pun intended). Once the MB is tested a few times we will know what it does, and we already know what the SRT8 can do, then compare. Manufacturer estimates are usually optimistic (for obvious reasons), and the european estimates are not always accurate for the US version of the vehicle. They (european) estimate in Kph (ie 0-62mph) as well. HP, weight, gearing, tires will all be important static factors with driver, conditions, track, temperature, Bar pressure being the dynamic factors. Still, all for naught once we see the real times. Let's wait and see, then dissect the reasons fror the results.

but what is the tranny ratios? i bet the 7 speed has a higer ratio in first so therefore almost canceling out th affects of the rear end ratios, and with the benz having more power less rear gear should be required.. just all depends on how effiient the 7 speed is at transfering power. Also what is the ratio of the transfer case? srt8's are 90/10 correct?
I read that it is 40:60,I guess 40 front and 60 rear,the jeep is 90 rear and 10 front correct?I also just read that it says 3.70 axle ratios:confused:.I guess the only way to find out is to race one.We'll soon see.

I read that it is 40:60,I guess 40 front and 60 rear,the jeep is 90 rear and 10 front correct?I also just read that it says 3.70 axle ratios:confused:.I guess the only way to find out is to race one.We'll soon see.

interesting... i feel the 90/10 is a much better setup for speed. these jeeps don't spin much at all.. so chalk another advantage to the jeep.. and yea someone race them..

easy answer. I had an ML63 on order and didnt take it. Went with a Porsche instead, but now I am going to get a GC SRT8

I can tell you that the ML63 feels slower down low than the SRT8, but much more potent from 55+. The ML feels as fast as my E55 on the highway, and much faster than my Magnum SRT8. So, if your looking for a stop light burner, the SRT8 is the way to go, if your looking for a highway bruiser, the ML63 is the way to go, but is it worth 95k? Not a chance in hell

PS- I also have had 2 04 and 1 05 Cayenne Turbos, all of them were modded, and they dont stand a chance in hell to an SRT8. Well MAYBE from 90+

H

Help me out here...is it a proven fact that the 6.4 will be in the challenger? I have read that it is a crate engine, and that the 6.1 will be in the Challenger.

If it is, I will get on down and see my buddy at the Dodge store and get on the order list.

And no doubt the ML63 is a little bit heavier than the jeep, but it has quite a few more ponies. Still, all things considered, the SRT is a buy!

Latest updates are that the challenger is going to get a 6.6L Hemi, not a 6.4L Hemi like originally announced. In the end all the engines are simply punched out versions of the 6.1L (and the 5.7L).

But any similarity between the AMG 6.3L (actually 6.2L) and the Hemi is limited to the fact that they have 8 cylinders and are more than 6 L in displacement.

The Hemi is an old style, pushrod, 2 valve, Iron block V8. The AMG is a all aluminum, DOHC, 4 valve V8.