So I believe I have noticed the following with my ESP:

In less then ideal conditions, if I leave ESP on, and I punch it, the rears slip for a second, and THEN the fronts come on board to assist (at that point its actually all wheel drive).

But my friend Dan thinks that with ESP off or ESP on, it makes no difference the car is ALWAYS in all wheel drive mode.. it only later releases the fronts once your moving and not having any traction issues.

Now when ESP OFF, I SWEAR the fronts are already engaged and the rears of course are too, and so when i punch it, all 4 wheels slip for A SECOND.. and then she hauls ass.

Dan believes ESP on or OFF from a stop makes no difference wether or not the fronts are engaged. Its just a matter of wether the computer cuts power or not.

IF you KNOW the difference with ESP on or off from a dig please inform us. If you dont, and your just guessing, then yours is no more valid then mine or Dans..

Help me to understand this feature since per the SRT Team, its not really something thats actually defeatable.. (stability control that is)... it seems to be just something that allows for you to slip or not slip from launches ?

Jon

So I believe I have noticed the following with my ESP:

In less then ideal conditions, if I leave ESP on, and I punch it, the rears slip for a second, and THEN the fronts come on board to assist (at that point its actually all wheel drive).

But my friend Dan thinks that with ESP off or ESP on, it makes no difference the car is ALWAYS in all wheel drive mode.. it only later releases the fronts once your moving and not having any traction issues.

Now when ESP OFF, I SWEAR the fronts are already engaged and the rears of course are too, and so when i punch it, all 4 wheels slip for A SECOND.. and then she hauls ass.

Dan believes ESP on or OFF from a stop makes no difference wether or not the fronts are engaged. Its just a matter of wether the computer cuts power or not.

IF you KNOW the difference with ESP on or off from a dig please inform us. If you dont, and your just guessing, then yours is no more valid then mine or Dans..

Help me to understand this feature since per the SRT Team, its not really something thats actually defeatable.. (stability control that is)... it seems to be just something that allows for you to slip or not slip from launches ?

Jon
I will start the research with the shop manual, then I will call Jeff (Blown7).:D
NO guessing!
Bill

Thank you sir.

Dan and I are actively debating this on IM.. lol.. and I dont think either one of us is convincing the other of their guess.

The manual, both he and I have read... so you wont find a bunch of insight as to exactly what its doing.... But I'll await the feedback !!

Jon

This guy thinks so:

http://www.totaleclips.com/Player/Bounce.aspx?eclipid=E13381&bitrateid=269&vendorid=102

that guy looks no where near that scary today, matter of fact he looks 60 and brittal. Not scared of him.. thx.

Jon

srt engineers said esp off sends power to the front at all times whereas with it on the fronts only see power after slipping, therefore they recommended turning it off for snow driving.

What he said. It's been discussed on one of their chat sessions before. I don't remember which one though.

I read the EXACT same thing from the SRT Team, and thats what I linked Dan too, but he claims he can read that "two different ways."

I think he is crazy, and pretty much I WIN... if what the SRT guys is on the money.

Jon

DAN.. DEFEND YOUR BS POINT OF VIEW !!

I recieved this in a PM:

"With ESP on, there is no torque to the front wheels until there it wheel spin at the rear wheels, or you have more than 40% throttle.......

with ESP off, there is 10% torque transfer to the front axle. This allows for more aggressive driving and no transfercase noise under "normal" driving."

That sounds like a very probable answer.

I recieved this in a PM:

"With ESP on, there is no torque to the front wheels until there it wheel spin at the rear wheels, or you have more than 40% throttle.......

with ESP off, there is 10% torque transfer to the front axle. This allows for more aggressive driving and no transfercase noise under "normal" driving."

That sounds like a very probable answer.

I have lots of transfercase noise with ESP off in all driving conditions.

Per SRT 8 literature:
Under normal driving conditions, from 5 percent to 10 percent of torque is directed to the front wheels, but as much of the 6.1-liter HEMI’s torque as needed can be directed forward when additional traction or stability is required.Therefore, I tend to think that after the initial startup and 20.5 mph transfer case test cycle is completed, the clutch pack is "lightly" engaged during normal driving....ESP ON.

My "spin out" :eek: in the rain was during a time when my ESP was disengaged. I don't think any power was going to the front diff.

This is a great topic to have the Engineers clear up at the next chat.
Bill

Therefore, I tend to think that after the initial startup and 20.5 mph transfer case test cycle is completed, the clutch pack is "lightly" engaged during normal driving....ESP ON.
Bill

Here's a question I've always wondered about:
Your at the strip and haven't got to 20.5 mph from start up until reaching the line, so your transfer case hasn't done the self test. Do you think this could affect your run with the transfer case doing the self test at launch?

Here's a question I've always wondered about:
Your at the strip and haven't got to 20.5 mph from start up until reaching the line, so your transfer case hasn't done the self test. Do you think this could affect your run with the transfer case doing the self test at launch?
Interesting....I was ready to answer,but need to think on that!
GREAT question!
Bill

my car sounds like a dying cow with the ESP off. Constantly moaning, groaning, grinding, and making weird noises that make me feel like it's gonna blow up to shreds...

my car sounds like a dying cow with the ESP off. Constantly moaning, groaning, grinding, and making weird noises that make me feel like it's gonna blow up to shreds...
Hmmm, would that be the transfer case clutch pack NOT engaged with the ESP OFF?
Clutches and steels rattling back and forth?
Can you tell what area the noise is coming from?
Bill

Here's a question I've always wondered about:
Your at the strip and haven't got to 20.5 mph from start up until reaching the line, so your transfer case hasn't done the self test. Do you think this could affect your run with the transfer case doing the self test at launch?

I've thought about that too. Pretty hard to get around, especially when waiting a long time in line, gotta shut the truck off sometime. My guess though is that the truck goes through some logic and determines if at WOT or near there on initial acceleration, and either skips the test or reduces whatever it does under normal conditions.

Good debate!!!!

Lets keep this alive, until someone knows the answer!! Thanks for anyone chipping in. I certainly agree the 20mph guestion is a subset on this one. So I'm glad to see that one come up too!

Jon

i pretty much exclusively drive with the esp "off" unless im on the highway. no abnormal noises.

I've thought about that too. Pretty hard to get around, especially when waiting a long time in line, gotta shut the truck off sometime. My guess though is that the truck goes through some logic and determines if at WOT or near there on initial acceleration, and either skips the test or reduces whatever it does under normal conditions.
Where is Jersey Boy or Blown7 when we need them?:)

I do believe you are correct with the WOT logic.
I start the rig right before the starting line, don't do a burnout, and pull up to the line.
A 2 wheel peel (diagonal 2 wheels spinning) then takes place.
Therefore the transfer case is delivering torque to the front diff at WOT even though it had not gone through the test cycle at 20.5mph.
Bill

A WOT skip would indeed would be the optimal way. But if it doesn't, is there a momentary decrease of torque to wheels.

A test consisting of pulling to the line, knowing the self check was done, and one with the engine restarted at the line might shed some light.

Our drag experts probably would have noticed any anomalies.
But we're still learning things about these rigs. Wouldn't want to chance a HP or two, would we?

Can we elaborate on this? I drive up to the mountain to go skiing, and would like to know - are the SRT8's all wheel drive? how much power goes to the fronts with and without the ESP on?

Literature states 90% rear and 10% front in normal conditions and more to front as needed.

Wow, where to start?

First I can't say I have researched all there is to know about the Torque Management on the GCSRT8. And that is one area I don't think anyone outside of Chrysler knows all the answers to either.

Here goes my thoughts with some speculation.
First there probably is a logic rational in the software that says on a WOT throttle run from a dig the transfer case won't self test or if it does the PCM/TCM/ABS/FDCM modules go into a reduced torque mode to allow for a test or if they don't the system goes into a default mode.

That no matter what anyone claims about reducing all the torque management with the pretty colored hand tuners there still is alot of TM left in the system because without it our marginally designed OEM drivetrains would be self destructing on a daily basis.

Just for giggles let's take the stock advertised engine torque of around 400 foot pounds of torque, multiply that by the tranny/transfer case final output torque multiplied in first gear and right away that exceeds the input torque of both our front and rear axles. :eek:

So how does SRT engineering get around that?? Reduced instantanious TM.

Lets use a example all will be familiar with; The 1970 Plymouth 426 Hemi/440 engined cars what did they have for a rear axle? A Dana 60 rated somewhere around 6000 FT/Lbs of input torque more or less.

Take a "new'style drag racing system, huge engine, built tranny,a
transmission brake, load the engine to bounce off the rev limiter and release all that torque at 6000 RPM and only the best designed axles will move the vehicle our"parts bin ready to pick" stock axles will just grenade.

So no doubt that there still is alot of TM still in the system and yes it is effecting the Elapsed Times of all these Jeeps in some way,the question is how much..............??????????????????

Another question to ask the SRT engineers would be what the 7.9 inch front axle ring gear size of our front axles are rated for in input torque????

Not alot IMHO,probably somewhere around 500 FT/Lbs of torque or about 10 percent of the available torque of our engines.in 5 th gear.



Now on another side if all the Torque Management is elimanated in these Jeeps and all the weak components are replaced as some builds are going on now I predict that
only a handful of people owning these Jeeps will be able to drag/race these Jeeps and get good times
torque management can make anyone who owns these Jeeps a racer......

Why don't you think Formula One Racing outlaws any type of computer (they do allow each team the same engine computer)
A computer controlled ESP Formula One Car would be impossible to beat.

Can we elaborate on this? I drive up to the mountain to go skiing, and would like to know - are the SRT8's all wheel drive? how much power goes to the fronts with and without the ESP on?

I think the power split is still the same but reduced ESP (Mr Squiggles light ON) allows more individual wheel spin (as in Snow) before the ABS allows individual wheelspin before application of the brake to that wheel.

I think the power split is still the same but reduced ESP (Mr Squiggles light ON) allows more individual wheel spin (as in Snow) before the ABS allows individual wheelspin before application of the brake to that wheel.
For slippery conditions, leave the torque management ON.
No Mr. Sqiggles when slippery.
Agree???
Bill

For slippery conditions, leave the torque management ON.
No Mr. Sqiggles when slippery.
Agree???
Bill

Bill I believe the SRT engineers said to turn it off (slippery conditions) because it allows it to engage quicker in one of the chat sessions. Not exactly sure the reason but I do remember it said turn off in slippery conditions.

Bill I believe the SRT engineers said to turn it off (slippery conditions) because it allows it to engage quicker in one of the chat sessions. Not exactly sure the reason but I do remember it said turn off in slippery conditions.
Damn....now I am really confused.:confused:
Bill

A good ESP article:
http://www.wkjeeps.com/wk_esp.htm
Bill

Hey Bill,

Not a bad article, but it still doesnt explain what happens when you launch hard from a light with esp on, vs launch hard with esp off.

Also, I think the 20 mph test is probably self evident, now that I think about it. There is no way Jeep would want to RISK the safety of the driver by not fully utilizing the all wheel drive capabilities and ESP nature of the car, just becuase it hasnt been able to do its 20mph test. I think more then anything, its just a test, it assumes everything is fine, and uses the system accordingly, and only tests if it is correct at 20mph, if it finds a fault thats when it will know, or when you actually attempt to use the system. I do not believe its in a degraded mode before the test occurs, im pretty sure the test... is just that.. its a test, its not a CONDITION SET..

Jon

Hey Bill,

Not a bad article, but it still doesnt explain what happens when you launch hard from a light with esp on, vs launch hard with esp off.

Also, I think the 20 mph test is probably self evident, now that I think about it. There is no way Jeep would want to RISK the safety of the driver by not fully utilizing the all wheel drive capabilities and ESP nature of the car, just becuase it hasnt been able to do its 20mph test. I think more then anything, its just a test, it assumes everything is fine, and uses the system accordingly, and only tests if it is correct at 20mph, if it finds a fault thats when it will know, or when you actually attempt to use the system. I do not believe its in a degraded mode before the test occurs, im pretty sure the test... is just that.. its a test, its not a CONDITION SET..

Jon
Jon,
VERY GOOD!
I believe you are correct, the 20 mph test is a condition set (sets the clutch pack in the transfer case).
It is not a system test.
That is why we have 4 wd (ok diagonal 2 wd) initially at the start line.
Bill

Here's a question I've always wondered about:
Your at the strip and haven't got to 20.5 mph from start up until reaching the line, so your transfer case hasn't done the self test. Do you think this could affect your run with the transfer case doing the self test at launch?

Before I weigh in, know that I haven't had the TSB done for the t-case check noise and torque pulse. When I do a WOT launch without hitting 20.5 mph before hand, the truck still does the test because I can feel and hear the thump.

I thought the ESP simply uses the braking and cutting of power to keep you from losing control. With it on, if you start to slip (say going up a hill) you will lose quite a bit of power and will have a harder time climbing up said hill in snow and ice, which is why the SRT engineers said to disable ESP when driving in snow. Had the same problem in my old 4Runner. First time it snowed I couldn't for the life of me figure out why the hell it climbed a snow covered hill like crap, until I realized I could disable ESP.

The GCSRT, from what I understand, is always 90 rear 10 front, until it slips then it changes to 50 50.

This is even more evident when you launch from a light with perhaps a few small patches of gravel. If you keep ESP on, you lose power as the wheels slip and the computer keeps you steady. With the ESP off at the same light, you will actually spin quite abit, until you start to get out of control.

my $.02

not sure if someone posted this already, but before even purchasing one of these jeeps in nov 06' i had read somewhere that, along the lines of what Bill was saying, that 90%? of the drive was at the rear and only the remaining at the front until the jeep's traction was compromised at which time more power would be put to the front (up to where the drive was 50/50)? perhaps the ESP actually regulates this front to rear distribution during normal driving condition, at which time it may not be noticeable whereas in slippery conditions it would be? i dunno, just thought i'd throw that out there for what it's worth.

p.s. guess what i was trying to say by all this is that depending on the ratio of front to rear power, that results and conclusions could vary???

I don't get it... IF you are supposed to keep it off on slippery conditions (ie. snow and ice), when why the hell did they even give us the swithch on the first place? Even persormance guys keep it off. If this is the case, to keep things simple and to stop the confusion, Chrysler should just keep the system off all the time.

My next question is, what is the 'on' position good for then? What driving conditions will benefit having the ESP in the ON position?

I don't get it... IF you are supposed to keep it off on slippery conditions (ie. snow and ice), when why the hell did they even give us the swithch on the first place? Even persormance guys keep it off. If this is the case, to keep things simple and to stop the confusion, Chrysler should just keep the system off all the time.

My next question is, what is the 'on' position good for then? What driving conditions will benefit having the ESP in the ON position?

The reason for ESP is simple. ESP on ALL SUVs was created to keep them from rolling over, not for driving through snow (that's what AWD/4WD is for). To make it real simple, think of ESP as being needed in the following cricumstance:

Say you are cruising along the highway at 65mph and some moron dashes into your lane and you need to make an abrupt lane change....well in SUVs, the high center of gravity caused quite a bit of roll overs. ESP is put in place by the computer. The computer can tell what tire are slipping and where to apply brakes and reduce power, to help keep you from rolling over.

ESP is good in snow and ice when traveling along a road and it gets slippery as it can help keep you from losing control. However, if you are starting from a stop in snow and ice and your tires spin, then the computer compensates with the ESP on by once again cutting power/applying breaks. If you turn ESP off in these situations, more power is in place to power through snow and up snow covered hills.

I don't get it... IF you are supposed to keep it off on slippery conditions (ie. snow and ice

You are not supposed to keep it off in ALL slippery conditions, as it helps to keep you on the road. It is good, however, to turn it off when trying to get throught heavy snow or accend a snow covered hill from a stop.

IMO, you should keep ESP on AT ALL TIMES when you are traveling on a snow covered highway as the feature will help you stay on the raod.

My next question is, what is the 'on' position good for then? What driving conditions will benefit having the ESP in the ON position?
Wet road conditions for one. When any wheel looses traction, the power goes to the traction wheels, and the spinning wheel is braked. Turn it off in the rain sometime and you can feel the difference. The same also works on dry pavement, but you usually never notice it. Actually it is a safety feature I like. We just don't want it hindering us at the track.


Edit: Composing my post while barho was posting.

Off in snow/ice is best.....I have to do this routinely. Took me awhile to understand.

When on, very diffiicult to drive in ice. Aggressive TM on these vehicles.

Off in snow/ice is best.....I have to do this routinely. Took me awhile to understand.

I agree, Steve, only it should be on during highway driving in snow/ice.

You are not supposed to keep it off in ALL slippery conditions, as it helps to keep you on the road. It is good, however, to turn it off when trying to get throught heavy snow or accend a snow covered hill from a stop.

IMO, you should keep ESP on AT ALL TIMES when you are traveling on a snow covered highway as the feature will help you stay on the raod.

I've found completely the opposite. The ESP intervention in the "on" position can be extremely unsettling to the vehicle and occurs far too often. With it in the "off" position, it will only intervene when it may actually be of use.

Of most use for winter driving is knowing the vehicle. I suggest anyone who has to drive in snow etc find a parking lot where they can throw the vehicle around and get a feel for how it handles with various steering/brake/gas inputs on bad road surfaces. Relying on the electronic aids will get you in trouble.

when you have esp off (that means factory butten) it cuts it down 50%, the jeep is allways in all wheel drive. you got to rember that there is a power transfer from front to back ( most likely 30% to front and 70% to back) also esp is set up for fronts not to spin at all. if front wheels spin you cant stear out of jams u would just slide. if fronts dont spin and backs do then thats what you call a controlled slide. esp is for saftey, but thats your answer.
hope i coud help my answer might be a little confusing by now